Jesus' Origin Story

[Mike Cl]

John 10:18 No one takes it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

And most think he only used that power once....*shrugs*

Considering 'he' is a fiction, I would imagine he can come and go as he pleases--or as often as 'his' fans write that into the script.

[Cavebear]

I allow that the bible states many important ways of people living together well.  But the "living together well" came first and the bible simply codified that.  Humans have been homo sapiens for about 200,000 years and learned how to live together all that time before the bible.  That some ancient nomadic tribe consolidated a few vague legends (a flood, a few battles, a time of slavery) means very little in the course of human history (as brief as THAT is).

There is nothing in the bible that is not taken from other older cultures, and little advice that wasn't already understood in the cultures that surrounded them.  Seriously, do you think think it was a revelation that one should respect the elders and not steal from neighbors? 

The bible is only the first written record of standard inter-human practices by a small tribe of nomads who met a lot of other peoples and caught on to writing at the right time.

I do admire them for that, BTW.

[Baruch]

Yep ... 190,000 years without agriculture .. and then it all goes to hell.  Hunter/gatherer heaven aka Garden of Eden.

[fencerider]

I wonder what kind of garden paradise goes through the mind of someone living in the deserts of the middle east

[Cavebear]

I wonder what kind of garden paradise goes through the mind of someone living in the deserts of the middle east

Water, lots of water.  Figs.  Water.  Shade.  Water.  Women.  Water; POOLS of water.  Water spraying everywhere.  Water flowing past your feet, and your feet in it.  Water.  Oh, and women...  And water.

[Baruch]

I wonder what kind of garden paradise goes through the mind of someone living in the deserts of the middle east

The Quran is quite detailed about it ... like an oasis ... only better.  Paradise comes from the Persian word for the Shah's garden.  The Iranians are good at gardening, though their land isn't as hostile as the Hejaz.

Young women in the oasis of course, friendly women who never age or get pregnant or bitch.  But that is the male version ;-)  Figs were the first domesticated plant.  But oasis mostly have dates.  And no snakes ... venomous snakes also live in oasis, and ruin an otherwise wonderful visit.  The oldest recorded Semitic message, is an anti-snake spell in an early Egyptian pyramid.

[fencerider]

hmmm so the Garden of Eden has some fig trees, a few lakes, and the wives of Abel, Cain, and Seth were waiting for them when they got there. Didn't have to tell me there are no snakes. I roasted those guys on the campfire last night.

[Baruch]

hmmm so the Garden of Eden has some fig trees, a few lakes, and the wives of Abel, Cain, and Seth were waiting for them when they got there. Didn't have to tell me there are no snakes. I roasted those guys on the campfire last night.

If an Arab catches a snake in an oasis, they sew its mouth shut.  Parseltongue you know!  Genesis repeats very old folk tales, which often relate to very old folk customs.

[Cavebear]

hmmm so the Garden of Eden has some fig trees, a few lakes, and the wives of Abel, Cain, and Seth were waiting for them when they got there. Didn't have to tell me there are no snakes. I roasted those guys on the campfire last night.

Well, I said "deserts of the middle east", not Garden Of Eden".  I was curious about desert fantasies.  No offense though...  I sort of see the connection.

[Soul]

During this time of year, one of the most common sights is the Nativity Scene. Whether at the numerous churches (especially in the Bible Belt, where I live), or as Christmas decorations outside and inside of homes. So I started to wonder to myself this year: just how much BS does Jesus' origin story have? I already knew of a few details that were blatantly false, but taking the assumption that Jesus actually existed, how much of his story could have actually been true?

First, when was Jesus born? It is clear that Jesus was not born in the split between BC and AD. Since the Bible claims that King Herod was reigning at the time of Jesus' birth, and King Herod died in 4 BC, Jesus had to have been born before then. As for the star that appeared over Bethlehem, there are too many possible explanations for what could have caused this "new star" to appear in the sky, such as planetary alignments or supernovas, to peg Jesus' birth to specific year. But contrary to what Christians claim, Jesus' birth (if it happened at all) did not likely occur in 1AD.

Also, Jesus was not born in December. Not only would it have been terrible for Herod to force every citizen to travel in the winter (more on that later), details in the Bible point to Jesus' birth occurring during one of the warmer months. No shepherd would have willingly froze his balls off watching his sheep munch on dead grass in the middle of the night. The December date was decided on because of a Jewish tradition, in which righteous men died on the same day of their conception. Jesus died in March, therefore, he was assumed to have been born nine months later in December. Sorry, Christians, but if you're going to say that Jesus is the reason for the season, at least claim the right season. Try Spring or Summer.

Next, who visited Jesus? According to tradition, Jesus was visited by three wise men, or kings, or magi, from the East. The Bible gives no such number, but like many details of Jesus' origin story, it was added later and weakens the credibility of the story. Number of visitors aside, I find it rather suspicious that foreign men of such importance would be familiar enough with Jewish prophecies (even more so than the Jews, apparently) to willingly pack up their things and go to worship the "king of the Jews." Somehow, they supposedly followed an astrological object, not only to a specific town, but to a specific house. Not only that, but these three kings conveniently didn't bother to identify themselves, making it impossible to verify the story by tracking them down. This entire part of the story smells strongly of bovine manure.

Did Jesus' parents really have to travel for a census? Just think about this for a moment. The king of the civilized world decides to count all of the citizens underneath him. And he decides that the best way to do this is to require all of the men to travel to their place of birth? Why not leave them where they are and just ask them where they are from? How is their place of origin even relevant for a census? Requiring so many people to travel all at once would have been a terrible and stupid idea. And of course, there is no evidence that such a thing ever happened. This was clearly a storytelling trick to force Jesus' parents to go to Bethlehem so that Jesus could be born there and fulfill a prophecy.

Did Mary and Joseph really have to escape from Herod? According to the Bible, Jesus' parents were warned by the wise men/magi/kings that Herod considered Jesus a threat, and advised that they flee for their safety. An angel even appeared before Joseph to give him the same message. Then Herod had every boy in Bethlehem under the age of two to be slaughtered. However, despite King Herod being despised by many people, no historians ever recounted him ordering an entire townful of male babies and infants to be killed. And besides, why would an unbeliever like Herod feel threatened by a baby of a carpenter anyway? Unless he believed that the boy was destined to rise up and replace him as ruler, which he had no reason to suspect as someone who was not a Jew and likely saw many false Messiahs rise and fall.

Other details added to the story later, which were likely untrue, include Mary and Joseph being turned away at an inn. Inns only existed on major roads, not inside little insignificant cities like Bethlehem. The Greek word "kataluma," was mistranslated as "inn," when it's usually used to describe a guest room, such as the one where the Last Supper took place in. People also wrongly assume that Jesus was born in a barn. The place was more akin to a kitchen. The lower floor was for the animals, yes, but there was an upper floor for the people.

It can also be implied from details in the Bible that the wise men did not appear until two years after Jesus' birth. The wise men were also not likely to be the respected symbols they're portrayed to be, but were more like traveling salesmen who were typically viewed as shady. The gifts of frankincense and myrrh were even common Aphrodisiacs.

Mary's virgin birth was not declared official Christian dogma until 1854. Before Pope Pius IX made it canon, the idea was first held by a small cult.

Oxes and asses were also never mentioned in the original stories, but were added later to fit Old Testament prophecy. Many other animals were also added over the years just for the sake of it, including a camel, an eagle, a leopard, and more.

So in conclusion, the entire origin story of Jesus is a load of bologna. It started so in its conception (pun intended), and evolved to be more and more unlikely as Christians added and took away details of the story. What do you think? Are there any other BS details of Jesus' backstory that don't hold up under scrutiny that I didn't talk about?

References:

http://www.livescience.com/49228-nativity-story-facts-history.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_21986_6-things-people-get-wrong-about-bibles-christmas-story.html

Over the course of several years, a woman named Maria Valtorta received from Jesus visions of scenes from His life on earth, including His origin story, and she described them at length in writing as a first-hand witness. Jesus, through Maria, His instrument, or "pen", brings the Gospel to life, helps one to understand it more and live it out better. He also gave commentary on certain Gospel scenes. Her writings were later published into 10 volumes under the title The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or five volumes under the title The Poem of the Man-God, which you can read for free here. I also highly recommend that you read A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta's Extraordinary Work, especially the chapters on proof in support of this Work having a supernatural origin.

[Blackleaf]

Over the course of several years, a woman named Maria Valtorta received from Jesus visions of scenes from His life on earth, including His origin story, and she described them at length in writing as a first-hand witness. Jesus, through Maria, His instrument, or "pen", brings the Gospel to life, helps one to understand it more and live it out better. He also gave commentary on certain Gospel scenes. Her writings were later published into 10 volumes under the title The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or five volumes under the title The Poem of the Man-God, which you can read for free here. I also highly recommend that you read A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta's Extraordinary Work, especially the chapters on proof in support of this Work having a supernatural origin.

[Soul]

I'm just someone who was able to provide the gift of what you were seeking, thanks to Jesus, and His "pen" Maria Valtorta.

First, when was Jesus born?

As for the star that appeared over Bethlehem, there are too many possible explanations for what could have caused this "new star" to appear in the sky, such as planetary alignments or supernovas, to peg Jesus' birth to specific year.

Also, Jesus was not born in December.

Next, who visited Jesus?

Did Jesus' parents really have to travel for a census? How is their place of origin even relevant for a census?

Did Mary and Joseph really have to escape from Herod?

Other details added to the story later, which were likely untrue, include Mary and Joseph being turned away at an inn.

People also wrongly assume that Jesus was born in a barn.

Mary's virgin birth [...]

Oxes and asses were also never mentioned in the original stories, but were added later to fit Old Testament prophecy. Many other animals were also added over the years just for the sake of it, including a camel, an eagle, a leopard, and more.

On April 23rd, 1943 (Good Friday), Maria Valtorta began taking dictation from Jesus and later other heavenly persons, as well as receiving visions of scenes from His Mother's and His own life on Earth. At Jesus's behest, she wrote everything she saw and heard, filling 122 notebooks totaling thousands of pages. Maria received most of the revelations before 1947, but they continued until 1953. The writings were later published: The Gospel as Revealed to Me, or The Poem of the Man-God (a Work on the Life of Jesus), The Notebooks: 1943, The Notebooks: 1944, The Notebooks: 1945-1950, The Little Notebooks, Lessons on the Epistles of St. Paul to the Romans, and The Book of Azariah.

One of the reasons Jesus gave for taking recourse to visions of His Gospel and explaining it is to make it more attractive and clear. On February 28th, 1944, Maria received a vision of the Adoration of the Wise Men. According to her writings, there were three wise kings: Gaspar, Melchor, and Baldazar, "each having set out from three different points on the earth," "each of them unknown to the others," "from the far away Indies," as in "meridional Asia, where Turkey, Afghanistan, and Persia are located in our geography" (cf. Matt. 2:2), and that then "the star guides them from the north, the east, and the south, and by a miracle of God, it proceeds for the three of them towards one point. And by another miracle of God, after many miles, it gathers them at that point, and by a further miracle, it anticipates the Pentecost Wisdom, bestowing on them the gift of understanding and making themselves understood, as it happens in Paradise, where only one language is spoken: God's," and they then proceeded together from beyond the Dead Sea towards Palestine.

"They had gone together to Jerusalem, because the Messiah was to be the King of Jerusalem, the King of the Jews. But over the sky of that city, the star had concealed itself and they felt their hearts breaking with pain and had examined themselves to ascertain whether they had failed to deserve God. But when their consciences reassured them, they had applied to king Herod and had asked him in which royal palace the King of the Jews was born because they had come to adore Him. And the king had gathered the chief priests and the scribes and had asked them where the Messiah might be born. And they replied: « In Bethlehem, in Judah »" (cf. Matt. 2:1-2). After departing Jerusalem, the star reappeared and the Wise Men resumed following until it had stopped over a house in Bethlehem (cf. Matt. 2:11), which belonged to one of the twelve shepherds, Elias, who had adored the Messiah in a manger in a stable just outside the town nine to twelve months earlier with the other shepherds (cf. Lk. 2:16). The night of the adoration of the shepherds was when Elias invited Joseph, Mary, and Jesus to live with him and his wife, Anne, in the town of Bethleham, where they lived until their escape to Egypt (cf. Matt. 2:13-15). (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. 1)

Additional information from The Poem of the Man-God:

• The vision of the Birth of the Virgin Mary can be read here.
  
  • The vision of the Census Edict can be read here.
    
    • The vision of the Journey to Bethlehem can be read here.
      
      • The vision of the Birth of Our Lord Jesus can be read here.
        
        • The vision of the Adoration of the Shepherds can be read here.
        (Note: The names of the twelve shepherds: Elias, Levi (a twelve year old boy, and the one who first saw the angels appear), Samuel, Jonah, Isaac, Tobias, Jonathan, Daniel, Simeon, John, Joseph and his twin brother Benjamin.)
        
        • The vision of the Adoration of the Wise Men can be read here.
          
          • Jesus's commentary on the Wise Men can be read here.
            
          • The real number of babies killed is thirty-two, of which eighteen in the actual town of Bethlehem and fourteen in the nearby country. Also six baby girls were slaughtered as the hired cut-throats could not tell them apart from baby boys because they were dressed alike, and also because of the darkness and their hurry to kill. The above detailed information is given by Maria Valtorta on a separate sheet added to the original manuscript.
            
            • Jesus's birthday is December 18th (The Little Notebooks)
              
              ...and so much more.
              

I highly recommend reading A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta's Extraordinary Work, especially the chapters on proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Or a gift to gullible idiots like you.

[Soul]

Or a gift to gullible idiots like you.

You haven't even refuted the conclusions for the proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings having a supernatural origin, much less read them yourself so as to be informed about what you're condemning in ignorance. So, it's a little early for you to be calling me and numerous others gullible idiots.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You haven't even refuted the conclusions for the proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings having a supernatural origin, much less read them yourself so as to be informed about what you're condemning in ignorance. So, it's a little early for you to be calling me and numerous others gullible idiots.

The fact that you demand I refute something as ridiculous as "supernatural origins" puts you in an awkward position. Because I don't have to refute supernatural origins,  you have to prove them. And after two millennia nobody's done that for you. You just keep looking like a tool of the Fatican.