Did Jesus ever exist?

[popsthebuilder]

Sorry I didn't read your second wall of text. You should write a book someday.

I respect that you experienced something and no one here will deny you experienced something. But I'm not you and I wasn't there. So I don't know what you experienced.

Anecdotal stories are still not evidence however. Many people claim to have come in contact with aliens. I still don't believe in aliens at this time.

Don't take it personally.

I have a history of addiction too. I'm glad you found something that works for you. My story I went in the reverse direction. I started out as an honest believer. I really believed with all my heart. I even remember feeling what I thought was the Holy Spirit at the time.

But after my drug addiction I started analyzing things different and came to a different conclusion. I'd go into more of it but I'm afraid of boring people. And I'm not sure you really want to hear it. If you do I'll start a different thread about it.

Thank you for sharing your story. I didn't mind reading it at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the genuine response. Your story does strike some level of interest. You could pm it to me or start a thread with a link here. I'll read it.

It seems very many conflate organized religion with the truth of GOD.

Indeed the things I experienced did come from within in some way. But they still weren't my own doing or products of cognition or thought processes in the standard sense. I know that may not make sense to some, but it is the most accurate way I can express it.

There was no thought of GOD or Jesus that kicked off a thought that I made conclusions from. First was the radio and second was an overwhelming joy and utter relief from the weight of my own loathsome existence. Even the things that came after the initial elation where from a different perspective, and comprised of memories long forgotten.

Rambling, sorry, I wasn't meaning to address those points towards you, or as a response to your post.

sincerely peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[trdsf]

I was already a responsible adult.

Not by your own testimony.  Contemplating the murder of another human being is not the act of a responsible man, regardless of your imputing 'good' reasons for it (thinking your son would be better off).  You may have been functional day to day, but I would not say responsible.

[popsthebuilder]

Not by your own testimony.  Contemplating the murder of another human being is not the act of a responsible man, regardless of your imputing 'good' reasons for it (thinking your son would be better off).  You may have been functional day to day, but I would not say responsible.

Killing her would have been poor judgement. Responsible was not doing it regardless of my own flawed reasoning and justifications.

faith in selfless unity for good

[Baruch]

Pops, this reminds me of people who are fond of saying:  There but for the grace of God, go I. 

They think or want people to think they are being humble and grateful--but what they are really saying is I have grace from God, you don't.  I'm glad God did not fuck me over like he fucked you over! 

Why does god visit pain and suffering never ending to some--and some who are newborns--and not on others???

This is all explained in Greek "pagan" theater.  The struggle of live is "agon" ... so the result is "agony".  There is a protagonist, an antagonist and the chorus ... and always the audience is watching (angels or watchers).  And there is the playwright.  In fact, the gospel of Mark is structured as a Greek tragedy.  Probably not a coincidence.

[trdsf]

Killing her would have been poor judgement. Responsible was not doing it regardless of my own flawed reasoning and justifications.

That's hair-splitting.  What is so difficult about just admitting you grew up?  Why do you insist on believing you are incapable of becoming a better person without some outside force making you do it?

And if you want to insist on the supernatural explanation anyway, why you and why not millions of other men around the world who have not only thought about, but actually gone through with abusing and/or killing their wives/girlfriends?  Why did those women deserve their injuries and or deaths, why did those men not warrant being pulled back from the brink?

Because that doesn't paint a portrait of a god who actually cares, certainly not about the millions of other victims.  It sounds exactly like a self-imposed explanation, not an externally-imposed reformation.

[popsthebuilder]

That's hair-splitting.  What is so difficult about just admitting you grew up?  Why do you insist on believing you are incapable of becoming a better person without some outside force making you do it?

And if you want to insist on the supernatural explanation anyway, why you and why not millions of other men around the world who have not only thought about, but actually gone through with abusing and/or killing their wives/girlfriends?  Why did those women deserve their injuries and or deaths, why did those men not warrant being pulled back from the brink?

Because that doesn't paint a portrait of a god who actually cares, certainly not about the millions of other victims.  It sounds exactly like a self-imposed explanation, not an externally-imposed reformation.

I have no difficulty admitting I grew up. If you review my recounting of said experience you would see that I noted that I had matured and my partner had not, which was much of the problem.

Never said I was incapable without trying. Through exceeding effort I had begun the long road to sobriety; prior to being given faith.

I donot think that what happened to me was a result of my not commiting murder. I didn't insinuate such. I merely noted it because it may or may not have had some significance. I cannot be certain. I am glad I didn't do it though.

Who said women deserved injuries or death? Surely not me. Nor would assume why things that happen to individuals other than myself happened to them. I will say that I think that everything does happen for some reason and that pain is to be learned from, and as such; should, eventually, manifest change in the coherent, operable mind.

I have painted no picture whatsoever. It was an attempt to accurately, honestly, and simply convey what had happened to me, to someone who had kindly inquired.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

Pops, this reminds me of people who are fond of saying:  There but for the grace of God, go I. 

They think or want people to think they are being humble and grateful--but what they are really saying is I have grace from God, you don't.  I'm glad God did not fuck me over like he fucked you over! 

Why does god visit pain and suffering never ending to some--and some who are newborns--and not on others???

You presume GOD fucked any over whatsoever.

Didn't we discuss actions or the lack there of, and consiquince.

It was a dishonest statement.

I consider myself quite afflicted actually, yet thankful for life, opportunity, potential, and experience regardless.

I, in truth find those with less...Uhm... genuine faith....to be, in cases, blessed with ignorance, as knowledge equals potential, and not acting according to known potential is chaos and knowing misdirection of self.

Ranting again....I'll stop.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

[trdsf]

Who said women deserved injuries or death? Surely not me. Nor would assume why things that happen to individuals other than myself happened to them. I will say that I think that everything does happen for some reason and that pain is to be learned from, and as such; should, eventually, manifest change in the coherent, operable mind.

I have painted no picture whatsoever. It was an attempt to accurately, honestly, and simply convey what had happened to me, to someone who had kindly inquired.

Well, by omission or commission, that's the portrait of your god that you have just given: one who randomly picks and chooses who suffers and who doesn't and who straightens out and who doesn't, without rhyme or reason.

I have to say that "everything happens for a reason" is probably the biggest philosophical cop-out there is.  If there is a reason for an event, it should be evident, not mysterious.

And still, not one syllable of this is evidentiary for your proposition.  You must admit that the idea that you simply once and for all took charge of your own life and chose for whatever reason to credit it to supernatural interdiction is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of everything you've said -- and so too is the idea that you were visited by, say, Vishnu but because you're a product of Western civilization you misinterpreted the supernatural entity that came to straighten you out.

It still falls to you saying "I believe because I believe", and has been discussed previously, that's not evidence.

[Mike Cl]

You presume GOD fucked any over whatsoever.

Didn't we discuss actions or the lack there of, and consiquince.

It was a dishonest statement.

I consider myself quite afflicted actually, yet thankful for life, opportunity, potential, and experience regardless.

I, in truth find those with less...Uhm... genuine faith....to be, in cases, blessed with ignorance, as knowledge equals potential, and not acting according to known potential is chaos and knowing misdirection of self.

Ranting again....I'll stop.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

I simply look at nature, Pops and see it as a statement that no god exists.  Nature is based entirely upon survival of the fittest.  Would a merciful or careful or just or loving or thinking or caring god make it so that the lion must kill the gnu?  That the, spider eat it's victims while they are alive, that all animals must kill to live?  And I could go on and include the microscopic creatures and diseases and such--but you get the point.  No.  No god would do that and be called god--it would be called the devil and the personification of evil--which is how I view your concept of god.

[popsthebuilder]

Well, by omission or commission, that's the portrait of your god that you have just given: one who randomly picks and chooses who suffers and who doesn't and who straightens out and who doesn't, without rhyme or reason.

I have to say that "everything happens for a reason" is probably the biggest philosophical cop-out there is.  If there is a reason for an event, it should be evident, not mysterious.

And still, not one syllable of this is evidentiary for your proposition.  You must admit that the idea that you simply once and for all took charge of your own life and chose for whatever reason to credit it to supernatural interdiction is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of everything you've said -- and so too is the idea that you were visited by, say, Vishnu but because you're a product of Western civilization you misinterpreted the supernatural entity that came to straighten you out.

It still falls to you saying "I believe because I believe", and has been discussed previously, that's not evidence.

I thought I made it clear that God is GOD. All names referring to the benevolent creator God are but names for the One Creator GOD.

If what happened to me was a product of my own doing and of my own thought processes I would say so. All I have is my word, but you by no means have to believe me. What's so hard to believe anyway? I'm not saying, nor ever said it was evidence of GOD.

Sorry you have such a problem with what I know to be true through personal experience on numerous levels.

faith in selfless unity for good

[popsthebuilder]

I simply look at nature, Pops and see it as a statement that no god exists.  Nature is based entirely upon survival of the fittest.  Would a merciful or careful or just or loving or thinking or caring god make it so that the lion must kill the gnu?  That the, spider eat it's victims while they are alive, that all animals must kill to live?  And I could go on and include the microscopic creatures and diseases and such--but you get the point.  No.  No god would do that and be called god--it would be called the devil and the personification of evil--which is how I view your concept of god.

I see life as striving to live. Nature is a cruel thing it seems at times in our vanity. But the capacities of man are wholly different.

faith in selfless unity for good

[Sorginak]

I compare theistic beliefs to delusions.

There is a plethora of people with mental disorders who claim personal knowledge and experience to something they daily witness and yet cannot provide any evidence of what they believe to be true.  Sometimes, another crazy person will believe the same thing, and certainly multiple people believing the same thing despite the lack of evidence does not make it true.

[Unbeliever]

Why does god visit pain and suffering never ending to some--and some who are newborns--and not on others???

Well, obviously, it's because Eve ate a piece of fruit that God didn't want her to eat, and so pain and suffering came into the world. It wasn't God's fault! He was just doing his God thing! The Devil made him do it!

And some people just have too many sins in their ancestral line, so God has to inflict much more suffering on them than on those whose ancestors didn't sin so much...

[Unbeliever]

You call it 'god'.  I call it becoming a responsible adult.

Yeah, why be born again, when you can just grow up?

[Mike Cl]

Well, obviously, it's because Eve ate a piece of fruit that God didn't want her to eat, and so pain and suffering came into the world. It wasn't God's fault! He was just doing his God thing! The Devil made him do it!

And some people just have too many sins in their ancestral line, so God has to inflict much more suffering on them than on those whose ancestors didn't sin so much...

I have found that theists don't really want to look at nature.  It is full of cruel and painful acts because of the system that is in place.  So, Eve earned that for us--god did not create it.  Say what???  Did Eve invent 'evil'--did she design it?  No god the creator did.  He created evil, even if he did not include it into human life yet.  he created evil and had it waiting in the wings if and when it was needed.  And he created his star creatures with terrible flaws--and he did not know this?  The all-knowing, all-loving and perfect creator?  He told Eve not to eat a fruit--what the hell does fruit have to do with morals and ways to act???  Anyway, he told Eve not to eat it--but sent in satan as a serpent to test her.  Mind you, the serpent was created by god, so god knew what the outcome of the meeting would be.  Yet Eve gets the blame and earns evil for the human race and terrible birthing pains for herself and all other women.  But god know this, for it was his scripting that was directing the action.  Once a person understands that Santa is not real--how could they continue to believe Eve was real?????  But they do!  The mystery of the big bang pales compared to that mystery!!