Did Jesus ever exist?

[Mike Cl]

The first Dune book is worthy of its own popular religion ... Jedi is official in GB ... why not Muad' Dib?  Herbert was one sophisticated thinker.

The first book was great--may have to dig it up and reread it.  I could not get into the others that spun from it, tho.

[fencerider]

i guess i have to admit that the story line in Dune is more coherent

[Baruch]

i guess i have to admit that the story line in Dune is more coherent

That is because we can "hear" the thoughts of the characters explaining their deliberations ... not just their spoken deceptions.  We don't know as story, what the thoughts of the characters in the Jesus story were thinking.  Also Hebert had the additional story of Muhammad to work with.

[randomvim]

Constantine made it up, to control the Empire.

yet it existed before Constintine?

[Baruch]

yet it existed before Constintine?

Not the same Christianity.  There were several before Constantine .. and several afterward.  The main one Roman Catholicism/Greek Orthodox ... was his invention at Nicea in 325 CE.  From that most of the Protestant and Orthodox churches stem.

[randomvim]

I think I finally figured out where you are coming from, Pops.  You like to think of life and religion and the bible and Jesus as metaphor's for how to live one's life.  Am I correct?

There was a gentleman named Charles Fillmore who founded the Unity Church.  He authored a book that I think you would simply love!  It is called The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary.  In it he tells you how to take any story in the bible and turn it into a metaphor for your current situation in life.  At the time I was a member of that church, I found I used that book quite a bit; I still own a copy.  As a very brief example, I rendered the David vs Goliath story this way.  David went from the mountain to the valley to meet Goliath.  The mountains are when we are connecting with our inner self, assessing what it is we need.  The valley is where the rubber meets the road.  Saul offer David help of armor and weapons.  David refused the help and used his own weapons; when tackling a huge undertaking search within and determine what works for you and the use those tools to the best of your ability.  In the valley use those tools and have trust in your abilities when tackling your own goliath.  My full rendition was over a page long, so this is simply a taste.  I really do hope you look this book up--it is right down your alley!

Any story could be looked at this way though.

[Mike Cl]

Any story could be looked at this way though.

Especially if the story was authored by Aesop.

[randomvim]

Especially if the story was authored by Aesop.

...or is non-fictional

[randomvim]

Not the same Christianity.  There were several before Constantine .. and several afterward.  The main one Roman Catholicism/Greek Orthodox ... was his invention at Nicea in 325 CE.  From that most of the Protestant and Orthodox churches stem.

how was it his invention when catholicism pulls from its church fathers and apostles?

furthermore, notes from Nicea indicate Constatine spoke little as the bishops took control of that meeting.

[Baruch]

Any story could be looked at this way though.

To a physicist, everything is physics.  To a psychologist, everything is psychology.  Are you an atom or a human being?  For the average person, the POV of psychology is the right POV.  In that POV what is the purpose of a story?  Not just entertainment, but not less than that either.  And yes, it is stories all the way down ;-)

[Baruch]

...or is non-fictional

Non-fictional story = dull story.  But I like those too.  If you think you know the truth ... at any time ... you are wrong.  The only relevant truth is ... "know yourself" ... you can thank the priestess of Apollo at Delphi for that one.  Been there, done that.  Aesop was thrown off the nearby mountain at Delphi, because the priests didn't like his stories.

[Baruch]

how was it his invention when catholicism pulls from its church fathers and apostles?

furthermore, notes from Nicea indicate Constatine spoke little as the bishops took control of that meeting.

The Church tells its story how it wants.  But at Nicea, Constantine could have had them killed one at a time or all at once.  A Roman Emperor is ... bad ass.  He had his oldest son executed and had his second wife boiled alive.  Nice guy.  The bishops could have done nothing to him.  Think of Don Carleone ... but with a 25 legion army.

The Church chose ... under orders from Constantine ... what Church Fathers to include, and how to edit it for later generations.  Stuff was included outside the Church Fathers, in their deliberations, including the very Roman Sibylline Oracles.  I have read that Constantine "prophesied" new Sibylline Oracles as necessary for that conference (the Sibylline Oracles were a state secret .. like the Grassy Knoll).  The bishops in general, and the bishop of Rome ... were nothing powerful in Roman politics until after Charlemagne over 500 years later.  They were all official Roman civil servants, under Constantine, think bureau of motor vehicles.  The Church was nationalized under him, like Chavez in Venezuela vs the petroleum industry.  Sunday was chosen as an official holiday for the first time, and Dec 25th a holiday for the first time, because Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus ... and that Dec 25th was the birthday of Sol Invictus and of Constantine himself.  Bishop garb today was formal Roman government clothing back then, including the mitre hat.  If they wore business casual back then, then clergy would wear a suit and tie ;-)  The three piece suit we wear now is taken from King Louis XIV.  The tie is taken from Croatian folk costume.  Previously, in paganism, the weekday was 8 days long, not seven (the Jewish system), this made Sabbath particularly hard for Jews among Gentiles.  The Western Church chose a different date for Easter than the Eastern Church (which was closer to Jewish practices) ... and a few generations before, had moved their liturgy from Greek to Latin.  That is why an official Latin Bible was necessary, though it took a few generations after Constantine to produce one (the Vulgate of Jerome).  There was no Bible as we know it, before Constantine ... he ordered up the first ones ... though the content was a bit Version 2.x at that point.  There were only scrolls and codexes (think blank businessman journals) ... a library subject to individual taste.  There was little papyrus available at that point ... it took an emperor to afford to produce 25 of them.  A single Bible, to produce the vellum (sheep skin) took the sacrifice of over 3000 sheep to produce.  The average person only has a children's version of an official foundation story (propaganda) about where the Church came from.  There were many competing churches before Constantine, after him just one, more or less ... the others were criminalized.  Uniformity doesn't exist, except as government policy.  This is the future reimagining the past, like 1984 reediting of the books and newspapers.  The idea that the Roman Church goes back to even Paul, let alone Jesus, is laughable (and I laughed and laughed at Randy, our last Roman Catholic troll).  Paul was a missionary of the Antiochean Church ... he founded the Greek and Roman churches ... though he wasn't the only founder, there was more than one in every case.  The Antiochean church is where people were first called Christians, and it was a Jewish group, not Gentile.  Paul was missioned specifically because the Jewish Christians hated him (he was a self hating Jew, we still have them), but could be put out of their hair by having him mission to Gentiles, way away from Antioch.  These were Gentiles though, who were hangers on at the Jewish synagogue, not at the pagan temples.  This was disruptive to those synagogues ... he was taking away their Gentile supporters (god fearers).  Men didn't want to convert, because of the circumcision thing.  Women and children didn't convert ... you were whatever your husband/father was like it or not.  But the god fearers were financially supportive.  See when slaves were freed (and this happened often) they simply changed into employees ... clients of a patron.  But what if you were a Gentile slave of a Jewish master?  You became a synagogue employee, not a member, if you were Gentile.  These are called Shabbos Goyim to this day.  Pagans, other than Egyptians and Arabs, were very very anti-circumcision.  It was a moral mandate on the Jewish synagogue, to purchase and then free Jewish slaves.  But if you were a Gentile master of a Jewish slave, and you don't want to keep him/her as an employee, then who would be your new master?  A synagogue.  Of course any slave, Jew or Gentile, felt gratitude for this.  But Gentiles manumitted to a synagogue, couldn't become full members unless ...

[Mike Cl]

...or is non-fictional

Yeah?  Well, the christ-story is as fictional as it gets.

[randomvim]

The Church tells its story how it wants.  But at Nicea, Constantine could have had them killed one at a time or all at once.  A Roman Emperor is ... bad ass.  He had his oldest son executed and had his second wife boiled alive.  Nice guy.  The bishops could have done nothing to him.  Think of Don Carleone ... but with a 25 legion army.

The Church chose ... under orders from Constantine ... what Church Fathers to include, and how to edit it for later generations.  Stuff was included outside the Church Fathers, in their deliberations, including the very Roman Sibylline Oracles.  I have read that Constantine "prophesied" new Sibylline Oracles as necessary for that conference (the Sibylline Oracles were a state secret .. like the Grassy Knoll).  The bishops in general, and the bishop of Rome ... were nothing powerful in Roman politics until after Charlemagne over 500 years later.  They were all official Roman civil servants, under Constantine, think bureau of motor vehicles.  The Church was nationalized under him, like Chavez in Venezuela vs the petroleum industry.  Sunday was chosen as an official holiday for the first time, and Dec 25th a holiday for the first time, because Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus ... and that Dec 25th was the birthday of Sol Invictus and of Constantine himself.  Bishop garb today was formal Roman government clothing back then, including the mitre hat.  If they wore business casual back then, then clergy would wear a suit and tie ;-)  The three piece suit we wear now is taken from King Louis XIV.  The tie is taken from Croatian folk costume.  Previously, in paganism, the weekday was 8 days long, not seven (the Jewish system), this made Sabbath particularly hard for Jews among Gentiles.  The Western Church chose a different date for Easter than the Eastern Church (which was closer to Jewish practices) ... and a few generations before, had moved their liturgy from Greek to Latin.  That is why an official Latin Bible was necessary, though it took a few generations after Constantine to produce one (the Vulgate of Jerome).  There was no Bible as we know it, before Constantine ... he ordered up the first ones ... though the content was a bit Version 2.x at that point.  There were only scrolls and codexes (think blank businessman journals) ... a library subject to individual taste.  There was little papyrus available at that point ... it took an emperor to afford to produce 25 of them.  A single Bible, to produce the vellum (sheep skin) took the sacrifice of over 3000 sheep to produce.  The average person only has a children's version of an official foundation story (propaganda) about where the Church came from.  There were many competing churches before Constantine, after him just one, more or less ... the others were criminalized.  Uniformity doesn't exist, except as government policy.  This is the future reimagining the past, like 1984 reediting of the books and newspapers.  The idea that the Roman Church goes back to even Paul, let alone Jesus, is laughable (and I laughed and laughed at Randy, our last Roman Catholic troll).  Paul was a missionary of the Antiochean Church ... he founded the Greek and Roman churches ... though he wasn't the only founder, there was more than one in every case.  The Antiochean church is where people were first called Christians, and it was a Jewish group, not Gentile.  Paul was missioned specifically because the Jewish Christians hated him (he was a self hating Jew, we still have them), but could be put out of their hair by having him mission to Gentiles, way away from Antioch.  These were Gentiles though, who were hangers on at the Jewish synagogue, not at the pagan temples.  This was disruptive to those synagogues ... he was taking away their Gentile supporters (god fearers).  Men didn't want to convert, because of the circumcision thing.  Women and children didn't convert ... you were whatever your husband/father was like it or not.  But the god fearers were financially supportive.  See when slaves were freed (and this happened often) they simply changed into employees ... clients of a patron.  But what if you were a Gentile slave of a Jewish master?  You became a synagogue employee, not a member, if you were Gentile.  These are called Shabbos Goyim to this day.  Pagans, other than Egyptians and Arabs, were very very anti-circumcision.  It was a moral mandate on the Jewish synagogue, to purchase and then free Jewish slaves.  But if you were a Gentile master of a Jewish slave, and you don't want to keep him/her as an employee, then who would be your new master?  A synagogue.  Of course any slave, Jew or Gentile, felt gratitude for this.  But Gentiles manumitted to a synagogue, couldn't become full members unless ...

false speculation derived from anti catholic centers. yay.

[randomvim]

Yeah?  Well, the christ-story is as fictional as it gets.

only one may assume