Did Jesus ever exist?

[Baruch]

I quite agree.  But god is a fiction, so being historians, there was nothing to write about.

Of course Tacitus or Suetonius is no more reliable than National Inquirer.  The exact language in Tacitus doesn't say Christians ... it says "anointed ones" ... it is Christian interpretation that it is referring to Christians, as opposed to Jews (who may also be Christians, but not like the later Gentile ones) or some other disapproved religious or social group (anointing is a common religious practice, going back to Egypt).  The physical description matches followers of Isis better than Jews (there were insignificant numbers of Gentile Christians at this point).  At one point Nero was quite in love with all things Egyptian, but had fallen out.  Also it is quite possible that some apocalypticists (not all Jews but also Pythagoreans and other gnostics) may have added arson to a natural disaster, since the fire broke out a second time in an unexpected place, after the main fire had been quelled.  And that could have been driven by ordinary insurance fraud.  Followers of Isis were more disrespected at this point than Jews ... because of their animal headed gods.  Just a few years later, and for the following 60 years, Jews were hated fiercely ... but this predates that.  Tacitus' story could be colored by that time shift, since he was writing after the first Jewish war (in a series of 3).

[Mike Cl]

You remind me of an inapt hyper Calvinist I know of stuck on repeat regardless of how many times and how many different ways they are shown new things worth sincere consideration.


It's sorta sad.

You have said not a single word that is new--or worthy of consideration.  I have studied all of this in enough detail to know that your theist beliefs are unfounded and bereft  on any facts.  Do you think the junk you have spewed forth on this forum is new to me?? Or anybody else?  My, my, my, what a hugely inflated ego you must have!

[Mike Cl]

Of course Tacitus or Suetonius is no more reliable than National Inquirer.  The exact language in Tacitus doesn't say Christians ... it says "anointed ones" ... it is Christian interpretation that it is referring to Christians, as opposed to Jews (who may also be Christians, but not like the later Gentile ones) or some other disapproved religious or social group (anointing is a common religious practice, going back to Egypt).  The physical description matches followers of Isis better than Jews (there were insignificant numbers of Gentile Christians at this point).  At one point Nero was quite in love with all things Egyptian, but had fallen out.  Also it is quite possible that some apocalypticists (not all Jews but also Pythagoreans and other gnostics) may have added arson to a natural disaster, since the fire broke out a second time in an unexpected place, after the main fire had been quelled.  And that could have been driven by ordinary insurance fraud.  Followers of Isis were more disrespected at this point than Jews ... because of their animal headed gods.  Just a few years later, and for the following 60 years, Jews were hated fiercely ... but this predates that.  Tacitus' story could be colored by that time shift, since he was writing after the first Jewish war (in a series of 3).

I have a strong feeling some of the stories that the christian latched onto were actually very early novels.  Christian leaders did  not care if a story were fiction or fact if it fit their needs. 

[popsthebuilder]

You have said not a single word that is new--or worthy of consideration.  I have studied all of this in enough detail to know that your theist beliefs are unfounded and bereft  on any facts.  Do you think the junk you have spewed forth on this forum is new to me?? Or anybody else?  My, my, my, what a hugely inflated ego you must have!

You conflating my words with whatever you've heard before is your own error and I will not be responsible for your actions, or rather willful ignorance.

[Baruch]

I have a strong feeling some of the stories that the christian latched onto were actually very early novels.  Christian leaders did  not care if a story were fiction or fact if it fit their needs.

Religious fiction is very powerful ... Muad' Dib

[Mike Cl]

Religious fiction is very powerful ... Muad' Dib

Loved Dune.  Read it twice, I think.  Also bought and played the Avalon Hill game version of the novel.  I remember enjoying it.

[Mike Cl]

You conflating my words with whatever you've heard before is your own error and I will not be responsible for your actions, or rather willful ignorance.

I will admit to being ignorant.  And willfully so about some stuff--but not religion and the search for god.  You seem to think you have new stuff to give to the ignorant atheist (or nonbeliever) that will just sweep us off our feet with the shear reasoning of your well crafted words of wisdom and joy!  And you keep spewing the same crap as though it was the best stuff ever.  And without a shred of evidence to back up what you are spewing.  And so, when you label 'willful ignorance'--look in the mirror and wink at the dummy.

[popsthebuilder]

I will admit to being ignorant.  And willfully so about some stuff--but not religion and the search for god.  You seem to think you have new stuff to give to the ignorant atheist (or nonbeliever) that will just sweep us off our feet with the shear reasoning of your well crafted words of wisdom and joy!  And you keep spewing the same crap as though it was the best stuff ever.  And without a shred of evidence to back up what you are spewing.  And so, when you label 'willful ignorance'--look in the mirror and wink at the dummy.

Sure....sure....

[fencerider]

i like the term Christian apologist. sounds like someone is apologizing for Christianity...

pops were you quoting from a book? or was that info you collected somewhere? can't possibly verify what you are saying with out knowing where the info is coming from.

so far it is sounding like Jesus only existed as a literary fiction, as; I'm sorry to say Baruch; House Atriedes only exists as a literary fiction

[SGOS]

i like the term Christian apologist. sounds like someone is apologizing for Christianity...

I'm always fascinated by that word.  The literal meaning for me means "apologizing for Christianity not making sense."  Having adopted the term themselves, Christians must understand that important aspects and foundations of their faith don't make sense without an explanation.  These explanations are not found in the Bible itself (if they were, presumably Christianity would make sense, and an apology would not be required).  Therefore the apologies have to be fashioned independently of the word of God.  Man must lend a hand to the perfection of the divine, which isn't quite perfect enough to be literally, logically, or understandably coherent.

It seems like "explanation" would be a better word than apology because the literal implication of "apology" is an apology for God's inability to communicate his word.  That itself might be the first apology, but apologetics is the process that not only creates the apologies, but also includes the sum total of all the necessary apologies, which likely include a number both existing and yet to made that approaches infinity.  You can think of each apology as one of cards in the fragile house of cards used to bolster the fragile faith of the flock.

But as in other parts of life, apologies are worthless without actual amends.  Unfortunately, the word of God, being perfect, allows no amends, so worthless apologies seem like a weak attempt at explaining the unexplainable.  In fact, Revelations actually writes that anyone who tries to amend God's Word will be sent into the Lake of Fire.

[popsthebuilder]

i like the term Christian apologist. sounds like someone is apologizing for Christianity...

pops were you quoting from a book? or was that info you collected somewhere? can't possibly verify what you are saying with out knowing where the info is coming from.

so far it is sounding like Jesus only existed as a literary fiction, as; I'm sorry to say Baruch; House Atriedes only exists as a literary fiction

Oops. It was from Wikipedia

[Baruch]

i like the term Christian apologist. sounds like someone is apologizing for Christianity...

pops were you quoting from a book? or was that info you collected somewhere? can't possibly verify what you are saying with out knowing where the info is coming from.

so far it is sounding like Jesus only existed as a literary fiction, as; I'm sorry to say Baruch; House Atriedes only exists as a literary fiction

The first Dune book is worthy of its own popular religion ... Jedi is official in GB ... why not Muad' Dib?  Herbert was one sophisticated thinker.

[Baruch]

Oops. It was from Wikipedia

Wikipedia is right about 90% of the time, but unfortunately the interesting part is the 10% they are wrong on.  Same old ratio problem crops up everywhere.

[Mike Cl]

i like the term Christian apologist. sounds like someone is apologizing for Christianity...

pops were you quoting from a book? or was that info you collected somewhere? can't possibly verify what you are saying with out knowing where the info is coming from.

so far it is sounding like Jesus only existed as a literary fiction, as; I'm sorry to say Baruch; House Atriedes only exists as a literary fiction

Yeah, but there is more of a chance that House Atriedes is real than Jesus is real.  Or maybe.............the same chances?????

[Mike Cl]

Sure....sure....

:))))))))))))))))!!!