Ethicists - Voting Your Heart is Immoral

[PickelledEggs]

Yup. Like I said many, many times. You have the right to vote for anyone you want. But be aware of the effect it has on the election. Like... realistically aware.

I agree with @Hakurei Reimu though. and I take back the "immoral" comments. It's just plain stupid. There are only 2 candidates in this election weather you like it/acknowledge it or not.

[widdershins]

The fact that you are throwing your vote away is not an opinion, unless the point of you voting for a third party candidate is a way of saying "See! They got 10% of the votes! They weren't completely forgotten about!" or something like that. As for the easy cheap shots, I guess they are easy... The disconnection from reality is very obvious. I would call them blunt reality checks though.

It is opinion, not "fact", as evidenced by your immediate use of the word "unless" right after that statement.  Facts are not facts "unless" anything.  Reality is not reality "unless" anything.  I'm only "throwing my vote away" if my vote did not have the effect I intended.  Your view of what may be the "intended effect" is just a lot more narrow than mine.  From you point of view there are only two possible intelligent intended effects.  A) get a candidate elected and B) keep a candidate from getting elected.  Anything else falls into the category, C) some other very stupid reason.  That all other possible reasons are stupid is your opinion.  It is not a fact.  It is not reality.  It is not denial.  It is your opinion.  Calling it fact won't make it fact.

But hey, if any of you guys want a pro-life Supreme Court for the next couple decades, some more of that good ol' clean coal, "religious liberty" that sounds an awful lot like a government endorsement of religious bigotry, and a repeal of the Obergefell v. Hodges decision (which effectively legalized gay marriage), then vote for the Donald or third party or you know what, just stay home.  Any of those options all work towards the same outcome.

Man, you people get heated and throw logic right out the door when it comes to politics.  I don't even know if there has been a logical fallacy invented for this strange argument.  A false dichotomy, maybe?  On the surface, anyway.  You have reduced the possible options to only two.  I can vote for Hillary and save the country or literally do anything else and condemn us all.  Bullshit.  Just plain bullshit.  Simple math tells you that's bullshit.  A vote FOR Trump tips the scale away from Hillary.  Not voting has no effect either way.

You can point out how "stupid" I am all day long and it's not going to change a thing.  Why?  For one, you're being irrational and illogical, calling opinions facts and making false equivalencies.  I'm not convinced by bullshit.  I know your ACTUAL argument already and I disagree with it, so you guys keep making shit up and pretending it's reality.  If I reject your very simple core argument you really have nowhere to go but the Faux News approach you BOTH just used, "If we don't elect Hillary we're all going to die!"  Is there some truth to that?  Of course.  Is it likely to be the worst thing ever?  If the world survived Hitler I think it can survive Trump.

And two, you will NEVER convince me that waiting to decide for whom I will cast my vote until AFTER the ticket is actually finalized is IN ANY WAY the "stupid" move.  Feel free to call me stupid for waiting until I'm fully informed to make a decision.  I'll just continue to laugh at the incredible ignorance of that statement and move on.

If you're emotional when you're making your argument then your argument is probably not logically sound.  SOME of the things you guys say is logically sound, much of it is not.  I mean, come on!  Voting for Trump or not voting at all is equivalent?  I really cannot fathom how you, of all people, cannot recognize where you've seen the arguments you're using before.  "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."  Doesn't that sound just a little like some familiar bullshit there?  You either vote for Hillary or you're evil, there is no middle ground?  That doesn't sound even a tiny bit like some bullshit you've heard a thousand times?

Many of my opinions are unpopular.  I am very idealistic in many ways, and I do realize that idealistic is often not realistic.  So I do make a conscious effort to weigh my opinion against reality.  I have not yet decided how I will vote.  I will PROBABLY be voting for Hillary, as I have said repeatedly.  But if you think you're going to bully or shame me into making that decision right now, before we even know all the players, you might as well give that shit up now because it is not happening.  If you think you're going to convince me that I have only two choices, vote for Hillary or vote for the end of life as we know it, we all have bullshit meters here which are very sensitive to all bullshit but our own and you're setting mine off big time.  I'm not going to change who I am to make you happy.  You're not going to change my opinion by trying to shame me out of it, blame me for unfavorable election outcomes, insist your opinions have been somehow magically transformed into very shiny facts or insult me or my intelligence.  You guys aren't even making arguments.  You haven't been all along.  You're making accusations, if anything.  When have any of you EVER convinced anyone of anything by saying, "What you say is stupid!  If you don't want to be stupid agree with me NOW!"?  I'll take, "Never" for $1,000, Alex.

So yeah, keep it up.  The sky is falling, I'm stupid, voting for Trump or Rudolph will have exactly the same effect on the outcome, my vote matters to the EXTREME if I cast it for Hillary, otherwise it cannot possibly have any effect whatsoever, some other stupid bullshit.  We all know where this is going.  It's a pissing contest and nobody is changing a thing.  I'm not here to argue.  Contrary to how it may seem, I usually hate arguing.  I really fucking hate it most of the time.  People are assholes when they argue, myself included, and I don't like that, even about myself.  Now I LOVE to "discuss rationally".

But I can see that's not going to happen here because people who disagree with me don't disagree "rationally", they disagree "emotionally", which leads not to "discussion", but to "argument".  So, you win.  I'm wrong.  It won't change my vote one bit, or my opinion, but I'm wrong, you're right, Trump is going to kill us all if elected, if I don't vote for Hillary it's my fault, personally, if Trump is elected, of course he WILL BE elected if I, personally, don't vote for Hillary, I'm too stupid to understand what you're saying, getting 500,000 illegal Mexicans to vote FOR Trump is exactly the same as not getting 500,000 illegal Mexicans to vote at all, all that other bullshit you all said...it's all true.  Even the truly crazy shit.  Pickled, all of your opinions are facts.  If you like tea, tea is fucking great and everyone should like it or they're stupid.  Hydra, if I don't vote for Hillary a billion times it's the same thing as if I cast a billion votes for Trump, there is no difference whatsoever.  It's all true and we're all going to die if I don't personally vote for Hillary.  And if Hillary doesn't win it will be my fault, personally, for even considering not doing what I'm told and speaking out against the "throwing your vote away" belief system...I mean, fact system.  I suck so much and you guys are so great and I wish I was you but I'm not 'cause I'm stupid, you win.

[PickelledEggs]

Lol ok, windershins. I thought you said you were done, btw. Or would you like some more?

Sent from your mom.

[PickelledEggs]

I'm just going to say it and leave it. Yes. We know you're "probably voting for hillary". How you think that stating the fact, not opinion, fact that voting for third party candidates is a waste of a vote, is bullying them in to voting for hillary, I don't know. I've said many times. It's your freedom to vote for whoever you want and even not show up to the ballot box. I am making sure that you and anyone else here that seems to be misinformed/unaware/in denial/ etc that they know that there are effects of their actions. In the case of people thinking voting third party will actually do something, they all seem very misinformed what the effects of that third party vote are. Even you, who "probably will vote hillary".

No third party candidate will have a chance. You have essentially 3 choices. Vote Trump, vote Clinton, throw your own voice in to the trash bin.

Go vote for Trump. Go Vote for Clinton. Go vote for Stein or Johnson. Just know what your vote is actually doing.

Luckily, as of now, Trump is a tiny bit behind Clinton. I'd rather not it be this close though. Johnson though?He doesn't have a chance. Not one.
Here are the numbers to the facts that you call my "opinion":
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton_vs_johnson-5949.html

If you want to keep going, @widdershins , let me know. I'll point out as many flaws in your "it's not throwing away a vote" logic as you want to bring up

[Baruch]

I hope you are right, that Gary Johnson is on the ballot in my state.  Last national election, they only allowed the D and R folks.

[widdershins]

I'm just going to say it and leave it. Yes. We know you're "probably voting for hillary". How you think that stating the fact, not opinion, fact that voting for third party candidates is a waste of a vote...

I'm not reading past that part.  Prove it's a "fact", without exception.  Do that and I'll read the rest.

[PickelledEggs]

Uhhh... well I posted a link with polls of the most preferred candidates. I also have provided facts throughout this entire thread, as Hydra did also. You're choosing to not accept them as fact, similarly to how theists don't accept many factual things as fact.

Sent from your mom.

[PickelledEggs]

"The solar system is geocentric!"
"No it's not. The fact is that the earth revolves around the sun.. "
" no that's not a fact. That's your opinion! I refuse to read what you write until you prove it's a fact! "
*displays charts and research etc*
" no! That's not a fact. That's your opinion! Prove that it's a fact! "

You are starting to sound like the geocentric guy

Sent from your mom.

[widdershins]

Uhhh... well I posted a link with polls of the most preferred candidates. I also have provided facts throughout this entire thread, as Hydra did also. You're choosing to not accept them as fact, similarly to how theists don't accept many factual things as fact.

Sent from your mom.

And I have explained several times why I disagree and given specific examples on why it was not, in my opinion, a "waste of a vote".  You're choosing to ignore my argument the same way theists refuse to ignore any inconvenient argument.  But let me spell it out for you with definitions.

Fact - that which is indisputably true.

Well, I seem to be disputing it.

Waste - an act or instance of using or expending something carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose.

I think we can both agree that voting for a third party is not "extravagant".  So is it careless?

Careless - not giving sufficient attention or thought to avoiding harm or errors.

Nope.  I'm putting a lot of thought into this, even refraining from choosing a candidate with any certainty until I know who all the candidates are.  If anything you're being more careless than me.

So it must be "to no purpose".  But there IS a purpose for going through the trouble to cast a vote, EVEN IF that vote is for a third party.  NOT ONLY can you not even meet the basic definition of the word, you, yourself, have disputed your own claim!

The fact that you are throwing your vote away is not an opinion, unless...

When does a fact stop being a fact?  When my intentions meet certain requirements as set forth by you?  When the stars are in the proper alignment?  When it's not inconvenient for your argument?  No, it's when it is no longer "indisputably true".  That doesn't change based on my intentions.  That changes based on evidence.

I have made all these observations before, many times.  You just refuse to see them.  In my case voting for a third party is not an extravagance, it is not done carelessly and it is not done "for no purpose" and therefore does not meet the very definition of being a "waste".  By those definitions, which are the first definitions I found which matched the usage, if I were to vote for a third party it would not be a "waste".  In YOUR OPINION, that is wrong.  But your opinions are not facts because you want them to be.

Yeah, it would have been easier to just claim that I had already proved you wrong several times and that you, like a theist, just refused to see how right I was, and then follow that up with a ridiculous example so that I could pretend that it was actually you being that ridiculous, but I thought I'd just do the actual work to actually prove my point rather than just claim I already had and then make fun of you.  I got enough of that shit from Randy.  I really expect better from you.

[PickelledEggs]

If it's your opinion, it's not objectively true. But just like theists that say it's their opinion that earth revolves around the sun, it's not an opinion. It's just flat out being misinformed.

Sent from your mom.

[widdershins]

If it's your opinion, it's not objectively true. But just like theists that say it's their opinion that earth revolves around the sun, it's not an opinion. It's just flat out being misinformed.

Sent from your mom.

I just proved my point.  You keep avoiding that chore.

By the way, I was done.  But then the conversation got more civil and I was again interested.  It's interesting all these little distractions you throw into the conversation to avoid admitting that you're wrong.  Take your response here, for example.

If it's your opinion, it's not objectively true.

If WHAT is my opinion?  That is a really vague, short post in response to a very detailed post where I gave evidence in support of my claim that voting for a third party being a "wasted vote" is not fact.  I gave details, definitions and explanations and you responded with this vague, short post without a single thing to back anything you say and then throw in a couple of cheap shots where you once again claim I am like a theist and then throw in "misinformed".

For the record, unlike you, I did not say your argument style was like that of a theist to take a shot at you.  I said your argument style was like that of a theist because your argument style was like that of a theist and still is.  I give support for my claims, you respond with cheap shots, being very careful to avoid posting any actual evidence in support of your claim because as long as you post only arguments and no evidence there is nothing which you ever have to accept as having been "proved" to have been wrong.  You can't prove an opinion wrong.  Neither can you prove an argument wrong if that argument has no supporting evidence to dispute.  That is why I said your argument style was like a theist.  Not just because I am so super right and you disagree with me so you are like a misinformed theist who is stupid and smells bad.  You really are being very childish.

[PickelledEggs]

You keep insisting that it's I think you're wrong to vote for whoever you want and that is misrepresenting what I'm saying. I've said many times that you are free to vote for whoever you want to vote for or not vote at all. All I'm saying is that if you vote for a thirty party candidate, you might as well save the energy and stay home, because it isn't going to do anything and it will have zero effect on the election. I took back the "morality" of it a while back. But even then the main point remains the same. Voting for third party for  president is a waste of your ballot. Plain and simple. That is fact. Third party candidates have no chance at winning. Voting for them will have the same effect on this country as if you stayed at home. That is a fact, not an opinion

Answer this for me, you're given 1000 dollars to bet on a horse race. The race contains 3 horses. Horse a and b are jacked on steroids and have been born from a strong breed and trained almost every day of their lives. It's frowned on that they are on steroids, but it is not illegal in this horse racing league. Horse c is a runt. He was also raised by a poor family and while he was trained frequently, he only averages a lap time of 2:30,where a and b average lap times of 1:10 and 1:06.
Betting on one of the horses does not only pay you back if they win; it also funds the trainers to help train and feed and use supplements on the horse.

Who do you put your money on?

Sent from your mom.

[Baruch]

The flat Earth folks are much more reasonable than the geocentric solar system folks ;-)

[PickelledEggs]

I think it's funny that he thinks I compared his argument to the way a flat-earther or geocentric theist stubbornly insists their world view is fact to take a shot at him.

I also think it's funny he insists that I remind him of Randy.

Both of these things tell me how emotionally driven his position is, as well as a few other things

[widdershins]

You keep insisting that it's I think you're wrong to vote for whoever you want and that is misrepresenting what I'm saying. I've said many times that you are free to vote for whoever you want to vote for or not vote at all. All I'm saying is that if you vote for a thirty party candidate, you might as well save the energy and stay home, because it isn't going to do anything and it will have zero effect on the election...

The title of the thread says that "voting your heart is immoral".  Until recently you agreed with that word, which you then changed to "stupid".  Both of those words, however, represent ideas which are ALWAYS opinions, by the way, NEVER facts.

All I am insisting is that your opinion is not "fact", it is "opinion".  That's all I've ever insisted.  You can think it's stupid, immoral, sinful, whatever.  But don't present your beliefs as facts.  It annoys me, as it does you under different circumstances.  The whole "You are immoral/stupid/evil for disagreeing with me because my beliefs are facts" thing is infuriating.

The only problem we really have is that you keep reducing my vote to nothing more than "effect on the election".  I understand that is the major reason most people vote.  If that were the only reason to vote THEN this belief would be actual fact.  But there are other reasons to vote.  You've given some yourself.  If my major reason for voting is something other than "effect on the outcome of the election" then, from my perspective, it may actually be immoral or even stupid to vote for Trump or Hillary (that is not what I believe).  Being "from my perspective" means it would be my opinion, not a fact.

Your horse betting analogy doesn't really apply.  Voting and betting have very little in common except on the thinnest of surfact.  I have had a long week and don't feel like getting into it further, but you're a smart enough guy (gal?  I make assumptions) that you already know what I'm talking about, I'm sure.

It's difficult not to be emotionally driven when someone calls you immoral, stupid, ignorant, irresponsible...I think we were up to at least half a dozen or so negative words you've used to describe me at one point.  It is difficult to stay emotionally detached at that point, but I do my best.  I don't remember giving any flat-earth comparison.  Maybe you're confusing me and Baruch, mixing us up into one "opponent"?  I have had a shitty week and haven't thought about this much.  Frankly, I don't remember half the discussion.  But some of your arguments do ACTUALLY remind me of Randy, particularly the ones where you continually insist that your belief or opinion is "fact".  Is that not what Randy did here for months on end?  If I were to insist that cheddar is the best cheese and this is a "fact", would I not then remind you of Randy?  I don't like to see fellow atheists cling to belief systems the same way theists do.  When I see it I will point it out.  It's not to insult you (okay, it might have been a little at the time).  But the MAIN reason is to say, "Hey, you're doing what he did.  WE are better than that.  WE don't use those argument styles."  Why?  Because the mistakes you make in an argument come back to haunt ME later just like the mistakes I make in an argument come back to haunt YOU later when some theists looks at atheism as some kind of hive mind and blames me for your sins and you for mine.