Athiest are the dumbest people. No Offence its just true.

[Gerard]

Several reasons:

First, the gospels were written by authors who were accountable to the very audience to whom they were writing. There were plenty of living eyewitnesses (500 or so) who had seen Jesus at the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians as well as 2-3,000 who were present in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the crowd after Peter preached the resurrection of Jesus. The authors of the gospels could not simply make stuff up when living witnesses (for and against) were still alive to refute them.

I also covered the "Telephone Game" theory here: http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=9994.msg1129156#msg1129156

Second, I have covered the significance of 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 here: http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=8929.0

Paul repeats a memorized creed that he learned within 3-5 years of Jesus' death and resurrection. Consequently, the message being preached was solidified EARLY and not "30+ years" later.

Finally, it was an oral culture. Unlike today, the Jews had to memorize everything. We don't even know our own home phone numbers because it's programmed into our iPhones. So, they remembered, because they exercised their memorization skills.

Yes.... and they all got cozily together to acknowledge that.... I don't think so.

Gerard

[Randy Carson]

I don't think that Christianity fared very well among the Jews. So it doesn't need an explanation.

Gerard

From the account of the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:41
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Some of the people present in Jerusalem that day became believers and then went home...to Rome.

So by the late 60's, the Christian community in Rome was so large that Nero was able to blame them for the fire. After all, who would have accepted this explanation if no one had even heard of Christians.

[Flanker1Six]

Little something for all you believers:

Grandma got run over by a reindeer.
Walking home from our house Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa,
But as for me and grandpa we believe.
She'd been drinking too much eggnog,
And we begged her not to go.
But she forgot her medication, and she
Staggered out the door into the snow.
When we found her Christmas morning,
At the scene of the attack,
She had hoof-prints on her forehead,
And incriminating Claus marks on her back.

And....................as I was going through my storage (well.................junk; really) room the other day I came across a pallet of True Cross fragments I brought back from Israel. 

Aaaaahhhhhh; I make for you a very special price today; my friend!   Gimme a call...................I'll hook you up. 

[Randy Carson]

And....................as I was going through my storage (well.................junk; really) room the other day I came across a pallet of True Cross fragments I brought back from Israel. 

Aaaaahhhhhh; I make for you a very special price today; my friend!   Gimme a call...................I'll hook you up.

Atheists believe the weirdest stuff. And science says you lie.

Taking the Measure of Relics of the True Cross
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/taking-the-measure-of-relics-of-the-true-cross/#ixzz48O18ASKD

Excerpt:

Clearly, this is a punch line with a pedigree, but is it accurate? That would appear to be a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer. But in the last half of the 19th century, a French independent scholar named Charles Rohault de Fleury assigned himself the task of tracking down and measuring every surviving relic of the True Cross.

Weight and Volume

De Fleury, like almost all of his contemporaries, believed that Jesus carried the entire cross from Pontius Pilate’s palace to the summit of Calvary. (In the late 20th century, historians found that criminals condemned to crucifixion only carried the cross beam â€" the upright beam was erected and waiting at the place of execution.) To estimate the weight of the cross Jesus bore, de Fleury drew upon studies of how much weight strong men in strenuous professions could carry: A robust porter, such as we see carrying the heavy baggage in old safari movies, could carry 200 pounds a distance of three miles in about an hour before needing a rest, while a brawny carpenter could carry 220 pounds of lumber on his shoulder 150 feet before stopping to unburden himself and rest. De Fleury calculated that the cross probably weighed about 220 pounds, but considering that Jesus dragged it rather than lifted and carried it, the weight to Our Lord would have felt like 55 pounds. Nonetheless, in his weakened condition after the scourging, even this modest weight was too much for Jesus, and so the Roman guards compelled Simon of Cyrene to help carry the cross.

Once he had estimated the weight of the cross, de Fleury calculated the size, or more accurately, volume, of the cross, which came to 10,900 cubic inches. But the total volume of all the fragments he had measured came to only 240 cubic inches. The number surprised him, so he made a generous allowance for fragments that were in private hands or otherwise had not come to his attention, as well as fragments that had been lost over the centuries or destroyed in war or during the vandalism of the Reformation. He multiplied his original number by 10 and arrived at a new figure: 2,400 cubic inches, not even a fifth of the estimated size of the cross upon which Christ was crucified.

In 1870, de Fleury published his findings in a book, Mémoire sur les Instruments de la Passion. De Fleury concluded that if all the surviving relics of the True Cross were somehow reassembled, there would not be enough lumber to crucify a man, let alone build Noah’s Ark. The 20th-century English Catholic author Evelyn Waugh, referring to de Fleury’s conclusions, said, “As far as volume goes, therefore, there is no strain on the credulity of the faithful.”


Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/taking-the-measure-of-relics-of-the-true-cross/#ixzz48O0tx6W8

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And failed in every one of them.

[Blackleaf]

We will get to your two questions in time. I watched the video, so I think you can give me a little leeway to discuss it with you first. And I gave the summary to give you confidence that I had kept my end of the bargain.

Now, it is interesting that you mention that the "general" or generic approach of the video was intentional and that it can be applied to Christians, Muslims and Jews.

1. Do you think this type of indoctrination might be present in Russia, China, North Korea and other countries in which atheism is the dominant culture? Do you suppose that atheist kids were ever told that their own parents were enemies of the state because they were Christians?

And don't try to weasel out of this by references to the Russian Orthodox Church...you know that the official state position that God does not exist was drilled into the kids by the kind of authority figures DarkMatter portrays negatively when they are obviously religious personages, etc. In fact, the body of Lenin is the "relic" of Soviet Communism just as that of Kim Jong Il is for North Koreans.

You evade my questions to ask your own, and you have the audacity to tell me not to "try to weasel out?" Fuck off.

Atheism is not the dominant culture anywhere that I'm aware of. Russia is 75% Orthodox Christian. And yes, that fucking counts. It's a huge majority, you dumb ass. Only took my two seconds to Google that. China and North Korea has Buddhism, Taoism, etc. Christianity is the minority there, but their people still have religious rituals, some even borrowed from Christianity. Communism isn't a religion.

That was more than one question packed into one, plus your own answer to the question. Even if your atheist nation did exist, you still wouldn't have indoctrination. NOT teaching children about god/gods does not equal indoctrination. In those cases, no "ridiculous claim" would be forced on the children from birth by both the parents and the community. There would be no rituals surrounding it, and no urgency in spreading the lack of belief (which again is not a ridiculous claim). If there are any truly atheist cultures where all those of faith are ostracized or killed, I'm certainly unaware of it.

2. More importantly, let's say for the sake of argument that everything DarkMatter alleges in his video about religious indoctrination is true - EVEN FOR THE JEWS AND THE ROMANS (who worshiped a pantheon of gods). Why, then, did so many adult Jews and Romans abandon the faiths into which they had been so heavily indoctrinated in order to embrace the Christian faith?



It seems to me, Blackleaf, that the early Christians must have had a very compelling message in order to overcome the powerful forces at work not only in monotheistic Judaism but also in polytheistic Rome.

This question has been addressed before. People convert to all religions, otherwise they wouldn't exist. The same question could be asked of the Muslim religion. Why did so many adult Christians convert to Islam after 9/11?

Now, stop asking me loaded questions and answer my simple yes or no questions. No long paragraphs skirting around the questions, either. Just yes or no. Don't make it make it complicated.

1. Do Christians indoctrinate their children, as shown in the video? Y/N

2. Do atheists use the same methods to indoctrinate their children? Y/N

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Why do you folks keep responding to Les, Gorm?

[Randy Carson]

You evade my questions to ask your own, and you have the audacity to tell me not to "try to weasel out?" Fuck off.

I extended you the courtesy of watching your video as you requested, and having done so, I think I'm entitled to a little latitude before I address your questions.

If that's a problem, we can end this right now. Your call, slick.

Atheism is not the dominant culture anywhere that I'm aware of. Russia is 75% Orthodox Christian. And yes, that fucking counts. It's a huge majority, you dumb ass. Only took my two seconds to Google that. China and North Korea has Buddhism, Taoism, etc. Christianity is the minority there, but their people still have religious rituals, some even borrowed from Christianity. Communism isn't a religion.

Evasive. I never said that atheism is a religion. Now, answer the question:

1. Do you think this type of indoctrination might be present in Russia, China, North Korea and other countries in which atheism is the dominant culture? Do you suppose that atheist kids were ever told that their own parents were enemies of the state because they were Christians?

I'll wait for you to address these questions adequately before continuing.

(Hint: We both no the answer to these two questions is, "Yes.")

[PickelledEggs]

Why do you folks keep responding to Les, Gorm?

I'm always amazed at how many people on here forget that if you don't give Tinkerbell any attention, she dies.

[Gerard]

From the account of the day of Pentecost:

Some of the people present in Jerusalem that day became believers and then went home...to Rome.

So by the late 60's, the Christian community in Rome was so large that Nero was able to blame them for the fire. After all, who would have accepted this explanation if no one had even heard of Christians.

Well, even if we take Acts as a flawless historical record (which it isn't) 3000 would not be all that impressive in a population of two or even one million.

Gerard

[Randy Carson]

Well, even if we take Acts as a flawless historical record (which it isn't) 3000 would not be all that impressive in a population of two or even one million.

Gerard

If you say so, Gerard.

I doubt that all two million Jews were in Jerusalem that day. And without electric amplification, a crowd that size would not have been able to hear Peter's voice.

Further, if any modern day preacher gave an altar call and 3,000 people came forward, I think they'd be pretty pleased.

And if 12 apostles baptized 250 people each taking 2 minutes per, it would have taken more than eight hours to finish all the baptisms.

That's a big catch for these "fishers of men".

[Gerard]

If you say so, Gerard.

I doubt that all two million Jews were in Jerusalem that day. And without electric amplification, a crowd that size would not have been able to hear Peter's voice.

Further, if any modern day preacher gave an altar call and 3,000 people came forward, I think they'd be pretty pleased.

And if 12 apostles baptized 250 people each taking 2 minutes per, it would have taken more than eight hours to finish all the baptisms.

That's a big catch for these "fishers of men".

Probably, but history doesn't recall any great number of messianic Jews (that followed the Jewish Law, as they should have) from that era. There probably were some in Rome and elsewhere, but most of them probably perished in the Jewish Wars and were not heard from since. Hence my remark, that comes down to the conclusion that Christianity didn't caught on among the Jewish people as it did among Greeks and Romans.

Gerard

[Munch]

[Randy Carson]

Probably, but history doesn't recall any great number of messianic Jews (that followed the Jewish Law, as they should have) from that era. There probably were some in Rome and elsewhere, but most of them probably perished in the Jewish Wars and were not heard from since. Hence my remark, that comes down to the conclusion that Christianity didn't caught on among the Jewish people as it did among Greeks and Romans.

Gerard

Acts 2:41
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 4:4
But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

Acts 21:20
20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Still, these reports are from the Bible, and we can't trust it, can we?

[Gerard]

Acts 2:41
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Acts 4:4
But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

Acts 21:20
20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

Still, these reports are from the Bible, and we can't trust it, can we?

We can't trust it as a direct eyewitness account or as a dispassionate description of what took place. So we handle what it says with care. Otherwise it's OK!

Gerard