Many Athiest are not rational. Sure we like to pride ourselves about how rational we are, etc. But we think with our new found wisdom we have reached some plateau of understanding. We have not. All we have gained is simply the realization there is no God. But what we have not realized is that God is just a concept and the concept still EXISTS! We cannot eradicate a concept that has existed for a hundreds of thousands of years fulfilling the needs of billions of people regardless of how they used or abused it. So now we have a choice. We can remembrance and recognize that religion still has value. And we understand it or go all the way down to hating it. Understanding it should be the choice for the rational mind. Hate is not a product of the rational mind. By understanding it we take a more detached viewpoint. We relinquish our egos, fears, doubts etc that are attached to us. We look again and observe it deciding how this should be addressed. We are the components of the collective mind of HUMANITY. With regard all of human knowledge we then begin to the value of religion. But unfortunately we generally only view things from the view one component viewing another component. We miss the big picture because our point of view was so limited. But the components can still expand their points of view. All we need do is detach ourselves and try to assume a larger point of view. We then strive for the OBJECTIVE point of view and become open minded. We still have the foundation of human knowledge and we are now able to see and discard what is not relevant or simply wrong. This is the foundation of SCIENCE. Now all I am saying here i that this is a concept within my own mind and think this is a very rational viewpoint. I decide within myself what I want to experience. When I encounter something that does not fit in my rational view then I choose what action to take. If it grabs my interest I generally pursue and confront it. That is why I am here. Now I am trying to say all this in very systematic yet elementary terms. Religious people having been placed in combat mode love to say that atheism has no moral basis in which to exist. But that is WRONG. One of the very first concepts was when we realized that we worked best groups. Therefore the logical observation was that it was better to get along with each other. So we created the principle of the Golden Rule which is also called by many other names and was incorporated into all our religion. But they cannot lay claim to that or many other morals. They appear to me as being self evident. But here we are having relinquished God and now asking "NOW WHAT?" This is what needs to be addressed here. Rather than running off people who don't conform or we don't understand we should confront them in a logical manner without attacking them. Now some might be sociopaths and those are probably the trolls being referred to. So we need to examine them closely and as rationally as possible. Can I now become accepted in your group? :-)
Again, you suggest that the vast minority, being "us" should confront "them" with science instead of attacking them. Here is my suggestion, get the vast majority to confront us with science instead of attacking US. You should know by now that "they" do all the attacking while we do most of the fending. We have been attacked for 3000 years, they have just felt a mere poke on the side for the last 5. They can get over it.
I was very interested in reading the topic, but speaking for all atheists ("we") rendered the point moot.
You already are part of the group - happens by basis of not having a belief in a deity. What you do from there is entirely up to you as an individual. There are plenty of groups who have atheists as members, but these are not necessarily groups dedicated to atheism. Rationalists have a high number of atheists, but the core focus is on rational thinking. Many scientists are atheists, but the core focus is on science - not a lack of belief in a deity.
Be what you wish to be. If you want to talk about logic, then go for it. If you wish to promote rational thought, it's your decision. Should you choose to discuss philosophy then I'm sure you can find others who wish to do the same. However, if you wish to speak about atheism as though it had more than one characteristic through attributing numerous other features to this group, then be prepared to be corrected.
Rational thinkers may be pushing the agenda too hard against the religious and wilfully ignorant. The holistic and spiritual atheist would be more of an opponent to rational thinkers than a proponent, even though members on both sides are atheists.
Hell, we don't become atheists in the same way. Some do so for rational reasons, others do so because they were never religious, and still others may do so because their feelings of betrayal from their native religion seemed to "kill" the god concept for them. Others believe in a higher power but do not call it god, and therefore are "atheists."
You paint us with too broad of a brush and wonder why we're bristling. Yes, a lot of rationalists are atheists, but not all atheists are rationalists. The fact that you've noticed atheists who are irrational comes as no surprise. Logic was never the feature of atheism - only lack of belief.
Givemeareason, you have been accepted here or you wouldn't be here, and if you speak like this you are more than welcome, but even now you have to use a derogatory remark about many atheist not being rational, as if being rational is all we should be, and never be irrational about the Judeo-Christian-religion that is as irrational, bigoted, prejudice, and hateful as can be, and just overlook that and say it is on equal terms with atheism and be accepted because it is a Golden Calf. "Are we not human" because we are atheists as you keep implying? Are we not rational because we don't accept religion based on the concept of God, or gods and the supernatural? Solitary
Not Rational ??? I put my pants on 3 legs at a time just like everybody else ! ! !
PS
Microwave Popcorn analogue clock dessert spoon.
Giveme, you take too many assumptions. You use labels in a way that is native to you--foreign to me. You lump atheists into one group who all have the same beliefs. That is not what atheism is--it is simply a lack of a belief. Period. Your brand of atheism is different than mine. I am willing to define mine for you--you refuse to define yours for me. Religion is another term you misuse. I don't think religion will ever go away. But organized religion can be done away with, and it should be. All organized religions are dangerous. Religion itself isn't. You seem to want to make the world two camps--religious and atheist. It doesn't work that way. We live in a world that features a huge rainbow of beliefs. Because of that, when talking about religions, you must be much more specific than you are being--that is if you really want to actually communicate with anybody. You are really good at running off at the mouth--horrid at listening--and nonexistent in replying to somebody's questions.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 02, 2015, 02:14:47 PM
Many Athiest are not rational. Sure we like to pride ourselves about how rational we are, etc. But we think with our new found wisdom we have reached some plateau of understanding. We have not. All we have gained is simply the realization there is no God. Can I now become accepted in your group? :-)
I think your confused as to what the term atheist really means. Don't feel bad... lots of people are.
To clear things up, here's the definition of atheist:
___________________________________________________________________________
a·the·ist
ˈÄTHÄ"É™st/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
___________________________________________________________________________
Notice the term makes no claims about the existence of gods. It only describes a person who
lacks belief in gods.
And your statement "Many Athiest are not rational." is obviously a 'teaser' to stir up controversy.
ra·tion·al
ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
1.
based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
By definition, if a person is atheist, they must be rational. Its a prerequisite.
So I don't think many people would be fooled with your teaser statement.
I don't pride myself on being rational, for I don't consider atheism to be something to pride one's self on, as much as it is just a natural conclusion one comes to after realizing that reality, as tough as it can be sometimes, is better than making up fantasies.
QuoteMany atheists humans are not rational.
Went ahead and fixed that for you.
No! YOU are not rational!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[spoiler]This post is for the purpose of irony[/spoiler]
Quote from: PickelledEggs on May 03, 2015, 02:00:19 AM
No! YOU are not rational!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[spoiler]This post is for the purpose of irony[/spoiler]
This forum has amazed me. And I say that with all good intention. From reading these responses I am now beginning to see this forum is a collective mind unto itself. And upon my joining this mind the thoughts that I bring and interconnect with the greater mind here are being handled in a manner similar to how I might handle this in my own mind. Such as examining, processing, accepting or discarding as needed. Hahahaha... i have my own forum inside my mind. My own mind and connected ego however drives me to bring attention to ideas that I feel need addressed and in a manner similar to how I might see within myself. I often like to address things in a detached impersonal way within myself so I am trying to interract in a similar manner here. I love this place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GexIytBUtm4
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 04, 2015, 12:10:46 PM
I love this place.
Well, if you had looked over the door when you entered you would have seen that that is our Motto.
Quote from: Deidre32 on May 03, 2015, 01:20:04 AM
I don't pride myself on being rational, for I don't consider atheism to be something to pride one's self on, as much as it is just a natural conclusion one comes to after realizing that reality, as tough as it can be sometimes, is better than making up fantasies.
I identify with your thoughts so very much. We are no longer anchored by belief. We are adrift in a sea of thoughts.
Quote from: aitm on May 04, 2015, 12:37:50 PM
Well, if you had looked over the door when you entered you would have seen that that is our Motto.
I do not believe in signs. Maybe that's why I keep going into the ladies room.
sure, but striking supernatural belief out from the bucketlist certainly has its benefits, logically speaking.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 04, 2015, 12:44:02 PM
I do not believe in signs. Maybe that's why I keep going into the ladies room.
How often do you crap and fart?
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 04, 2015, 12:44:02 PM
I do not believe in signs. Maybe that's why I keep going into the ladies room.
Yeh that's the ticket! I will try that on the bouncer next time. I will claim he is obstructing my freedom of religion!!
"atheist" merely means "off, or "empty" on god claims. It does not describe anything outside that position. It says nothing about education level, or economic view, or political views. It is not a religion, political party, economic view, loyalty oath or even a moral code. It merely means "off" or "empty".
I certainly don't agree with Ayn Rand "fuck you I got mine" economics. But I am also no fan of Che "rid a planet of 7 billion of the private sector" as if you could. I also know other atheists who have their own conspiracy crap like 9/11 or JFK.
Atheist is not a patent holder of our species morality either. Having said that, I do get down on those who stupidly think the traditions of antiquity or the religions of antiquity are patent holders either. NO, sorry, our planet was around long before humans. The meteor that killed the dinosaurs didn't stop and ask what dinosaurs believed or what their morality was. In the future our species will go extinct and there will be no record of either the atheist or theist or the positions we hold. The universe was fine before we existed and will continue on long after the planet and our sun dies.
I see nothing wrong with humans giving up on the past and bad ideas rooted in superstition and mythology. No that is NOT call to force religion out of existence. Just a simple statement of we have better tools to measure the nature of reality and if we decide to move forward, we tend to progress.
I hate my well intended friends on the left who rightfully say "we are all capable of being good regardless of label", I AGREE. That should tell liberal and moderate believers worldwide of all religions, that the morality is not in the book itself, but in our common evolution..
Victor Stenger's "The New Atheism" makes this case in it's later chapters. Combine that with Dawkins "God Delusion" neither amount to calls for a fascist atheist world, but a simple recognition of the psychology as to why humans gap fill and end up creating religion at all. No different than saying the earth revolves around the sun.
Great post Brian! :super: Solitary
Having cogitated a while, I have come to the opinion that the subject makes no sense. Of course many atheists are not rational. Many--probably most--humans are not rational, and unless someone's planning on coming out of the saucer, or has a trick for reading animals' minds, I feel pretty comfortable in stating that all atheists are humans. At least on this planet; I can't speak for any unknown civilizations out there.
I haven't seen anyone here claim to be perfectly rational at all times, and I haven't seen anyone claim that perfect rationality is the goal of atheism.
I have a couple phobias. I'm afraid to visit California because I'm sure--on the basis of no evidence whatsoever--that there would be an earthquake, at which point I would levitate back to the geological stability of Ohio. This is not a rational fear, I understand that it's not a rational fear, and I am therefore not 100% rational. I do choose, however, to deal with it in a rational way: to wit, I have no plans to visit California. Problem solved. More to the point, problem solved rationally. And you know? I expect that if I were ever presented with a situation where I needed to go to California for some reason--for example, a complete collapse of literary taste in science fiction leading to me being nominated for a Hugo and Worldcon that year was being held in L.A.--I would actually probably go anyway.
Rationality is a process, not a state of being. It's how you make sense of the world around you, figure out your place in it, and how you're going to react to it.
I might make further arguments that it's our ability to be irrational that makes music, art and humor all possible, but that's a philosophical thing that I really have no desire to get into. I'll just float it as an idea rather than posit it as an actual theory of creativity.
Brian makes a great point about conspiracy theories; I believed in a few in the 70s, but they all eventually paled in comparison to the reality of what went on in the Watergate scandal. I mean, if you tried to write that as a political thriller, you'd never get it published on the basis of it being far too ludicrous to ever happen... but it did. And I have a sort of memory of letting go of the idea of a Loch Ness monster, mostly on the realization that if there was only one, it would have to be immortal since there's no breeding population. Myth busted, right there.
Applying rationalism takes practice. We're creatures that pattern-match so well, we can spot patterns that aren't actually there. It was really useful for our ancestors half a million years ago to be able to take a faint noise, a half-glimpsed flicker of fur among the leaves, and a low growl that might have been more imagination than reality and go "Holy shit!" and scamper up a tree before being eaten by something. This kind of hypersensitivity may no longer be a survival advantage, and certainly plays a role in the amount of irrationality in all our lives. We're accustomed to believing our senses, so even if we glimpse something that's not objectively there, we're still sure we saw it.
This is being human. We have to work with what we've evolved into.
Quote from: trdsf on May 04, 2015, 07:35:30 PM
Having cogitated a while,
WHOA THE FUCK WHOA!!!! WE DON'T FUCKING ALLOW THST COGITATING SHIT AROUND HERE….DO THAT AGAIN AND I WILL HAVE TO…ER……….ask somebody what the fuck it means…IN THE MEAN TIME NO FUCKING COGITATIN! GOT IT?
Quote from: aitm on May 04, 2015, 09:21:43 PM
WHOA THE FUCK WHOA!!!! WE DON'T FUCKING ALLOW THST COGITATING SHIT AROUND HERE….DO THAT AGAIN AND I WILL HAVE TO…ER……….ask somebody what the fuck it means…IN THE MEAN TIME NO FUCKING COGITATIN! GOT IT?
*cogitates about aitm*
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 02, 2015, 02:14:47 PM
Many Athiest are not rational.
Who says I have to be rational?
Giveme is a real jerk. He starts a thread, then walks away from it without commenting on the responses his post gets. What is the point of starting a thread if the starter of the thread walks away from it with participating???? And he claims he wants to be a part of this board. Really? Act like it, then Giveme--do you giveashit?????
Atheism is abnormal (you failed to respond to many retorts in that thread as well, remember) and now many atheists aren't rational.
Tell me, you say in your signature that you're shy and that you try to be kind, but surely this is pretence right?
Many atheists aren't rational. As anti says, so what? What's your point? You won't ever find someone here saying 'all atheists re rational'. So thanks for telling us something we already know.
yadda yadda atheists dismiss things yadda yadda . *yawn*
I get the impression that some people assume all atheists are like Dr. Beverly Hofstadter.
https://youtu.be/T2JyvheWwk0
Sigh, if only...
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2015, 04:15:19 PM
Giveme is a real jerk. He starts a thread, then walks away from it without commenting on the responses his post gets. What is the point of starting a thread if the starter of the thread walks away from it with participating???? And he claims he wants to be a part of this board. Really? Act like it, then Giveme--do you giveashit?????
I am sorry, Mike. I certainly can be a jerk but I don't mean to. I cannot address every post under a thread I started but I do read them all. This experience of being on a board is somewhat new for me. I just got my smartphone a few months ago and it has been eye opening for me. You in particular have helped me a couple times here. Firstly by your correcting me that atheism is indeed profound. And secondly by your observation that I am like an unfocused philosopher. This entire experience here has engaged me in a great deal of thought which keeps expanding and is becoming ever more profound for me.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 05, 2015, 09:35:47 PM
I am sorry, Mike. I certainly can be a jerk but I don't mean to. I cannot address every post under a thread I started but I do read them all. This experience of being on a board is somewhat new for me. I just got my smartphone a few months ago and it has been eye opening for me. You in particular have helped me a couple times here. Firstly by your correcting me that atheism is indeed profound. And secondly by your observation that I am like an unfocused philosopher. This entire experience here has engaged me in a great deal of thought which keeps expanding and is becoming ever more profound for me.
I am happy for you. You are about as far from profound for me as anybody can be. How do you think you are 'engaged' here? You don't explain a thing. You don't sustain a thing. You contribute nothing. You are like a fart--cause a stink for a second and then fade away to nothing.
Quote from: Brian37 on May 04, 2015, 02:18:50 PM
NO, sorry, our planet was around long before humans. The meteor that killed the dinosaurs didn't stop and ask what dinosaurs believed or what their morality was. In the future our species will go extinct and there will be no record of either the atheist or theist or the positions we hold. The universe was fine before we existed and will continue on long after the planet and our sun dies.
I used to think the same way. But now I am beginning to wonder. This is also the first time anything like this has ever happened here. And thought has never happened before either. So it is starting to look rather amazing to me.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2015, 09:43:25 PM
I am happy for you. You are about as far from profound for me as anybody can be. How do you think you are 'engaged' here? You don't explain a thing. You don't sustain a thing. You contribute nothing. You are like a fart--cause a stink for a second and then fade away to nothing.
Be patient with me. I am evolving.
Givemeareason, a discussion or dialogue involves an exchange of ideas, emotions, or trivialities. At the end of the day, both parties need to get something out of it. When it comes to you, much of the discussion involves your musings and trivial gratitude, but very little in listening to others or offering feedback specific to topic at hand and the variations of a topic's evolution. To engage in conversation implies that you are receiving the information, offering feedback specific to this information, and then waiting for the feedback from the other person(s). Without this, all that's left is a dialogue so off balanced that it narrowly misses being a monologue only because the other party is requesting feedback over and over again therefore showing they are willing to participate.
A forum involves discussions - not personal musings in which you may or may not offer meaningful feedback to a given discussion. If you are unable to offer a response to every post you receive, then pick the most prominent posts and create a single post that responds to them. The use of quotes will show who you are responding to and offer structure and clarity to your responses. A sloppy response is much better than none at all.
Quote from: Aletheia on May 05, 2015, 10:24:19 PM
Givemeareason, a discussion or dialogue involves an exchange of ideas, emotions, or trivialities. At the end of the day, both parties need to get something out of it. When it comes to you, much of the discussion involves your musings and trivial gratitude, but very little in listening to others or offering feedback specific to topic at hand and the variations of a topic's evolution. To engage in conversation implies that you are receiving the information, offering feedback specific to this information, and then waiting for the feedback from the other person(s). Without this, all that's left is a dialogue so off balanced that it narrowly misses being a monologue only because the other party is requesting feedback over and over again therefore showing they are willing to participate.
A forum involves discussions - not personal musings in which you may or may not offer meaningful feedback to a given discussion. If you are unable to offer a response to every post you receive, then pick the most prominent posts and create a single post that responds to them. The use of quotes will show who you are responding to and offer structure and clarity to your responses. A sloppy response is much better than none at all.
I see your point. I do too much in the way of ducking in and out. That being the case it is inappropriate for me to keep starting new threads and then just ducking back to collect what I may have gathered. I will henceforth make no new threads unless I can stay with them. It is clear I need to become more informed on Internet etiquette.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 02, 2015, 02:14:47 PM
Many Athiest are not rational. Sure we like to pride ourselves about how rational we are, etc. But we think with our new found wisdom we have reached some plateau of understanding. We have not. All we have gained is simply the realization there is no God. But what we have not realized is that God is just a concept and the concept still EXISTS! We cannot eradicate a concept that has existed for a hundreds of thousands of years fulfilling the needs of billions of people regardless of how they used or abused it. So now we have a choice. We can remembrance and recognize that religion still has value. And we understand it or go all the way down to hating it. Understanding it should be the choice for the rational mind. Hate is not a product of the rational mind. By understanding it we take a more detached viewpoint. We relinquish our egos, fears, doubts etc that are attached to us. We look again and observe it deciding how this should be addressed. We are the components of the collective mind of HUMANITY. With regard all of human knowledge we then begin to the value of religion. But unfortunately we generally only view things from the view one component viewing another component. We miss the big picture because our point of view was so limited. But the components can still expand their points of view. All we need do is detach ourselves and try to assume a larger point of view. We then strive for the OBJECTIVE point of view and become open minded. We still have the foundation of human knowledge and we are now able to see and discard what is not relevant or simply wrong. This is the foundation of SCIENCE. Now all I am saying here i that this is a concept within my own mind and think this is a very rational viewpoint. I decide within myself what I want to experience. When I encounter something that does not fit in my rational view then I choose what action to take. If it grabs my interest I generally pursue and confront it. That is why I am here. Now I am trying to say all this in very systematic yet elementary terms. Religious people having been placed in combat mode love to say that atheism has no moral basis in which to exist. But that is WRONG. One of the very first concepts was when we realized that we worked best groups. Therefore the logical observation was that it was better to get along with each other. So we created the principle of the Golden Rule which is also called by many other names and was incorporated into all our religion. But they cannot lay claim to that or many other morals. They appear to me as being self evident. But here we are having relinquished God and now asking "NOW WHAT?" This is what needs to be addressed here. Rather than running off people who don't conform or we don't understand we should confront them in a logical manner without attacking them. Now some might be sociopaths and those are probably the trolls being referred to. So we need to examine them closely and as rationally as possible. Can I now become accepted in your group? :-)
OH I strongly disagree. We can eradicate religion just like we eradicated the belief that the world was flat. If we just sat down and said oh well people will always believe the world is flat people need to believe the world is flat and we should just accept that people believe the world is flat, people would still believe the world is flat! The world can not be a better place if we sit down and accept things it can only get worse if we don't speak out and stand up to it. And there is nothing irrational about that.
Also I can prove that humans do not need religion. I am living proof of it. I have not needed religion for 8 years now and I'm doing much better than when I believed in god. Religion holds humanity back there is little redeeming value in it end of statement.
Now you can keep presenting the same argument over and over again and gain nothing or you can keep reading and gain some insight on how your opinion is not the only one! You might think you can keep beating us over the head with it but it will never stick because it is simply just not true!
Quote from: doorknob on May 06, 2015, 08:19:43 AM
OH I strongly disagree. We can eradicate religion just like we eradicated the belief that the world was flat. If we just sat down and said oh well people will always believe the world is flat people need to believe the world is flat and we should just accept that people believe the world is flat, people would still believe the world is flat! The world can not be a better place if we sit down and accept things it can only get worse if we don't speak out and stand up to it. And there is nothing irrational about that.
Also I can prove that humans do not need religion. I am living proof of it. I have not needed religion for 8 years now and I'm doing much better than when I believed in god. Religion holds humanity back there is little redeeming value in it end of statement.
Now you can keep presenting the same argument over and over again and gain nothing or you can keep reading and gain some insight on how your opinion is not the only one! You might think you can keep beating us over the head with it but it will never stick because it is simply just not true!
Oh, but some people evidently do still believe the world is flat. What difference doe it make? You have only proven that some people don't need religion. Since you and others seem to be so rigid in your new beliefs, maybe I should keep bringing up the same old argument?
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 06, 2015, 10:22:10 AM
Oh, but some people evidently do still believe the world is flat. What difference doe it make? You have only proven that some people don't need religion. Since you and others seem to be so rigid in your new beliefs, maybe I should keep bringing up the same old argument?
HaHaHa...............you are a riot. Since when have you had an argument? Or stated any reasons of any kind???? Still just an old fart--make a stink and then fade away.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 06, 2015, 10:44:37 AM
HaHaHa...............you are a riot. Since when have you had an argument? Or stated any reasons of any kind???? Still just an old fart--make a stink and then fade away.
You need to lighten up, Mike. You are becoming too personal. You should know by that I am fairly oblivious to insult. I would prefer you revert back to your more enlightened viewpoints.
Quote from: doorknob on May 06, 2015, 08:19:43 AM
OH I strongly disagree. We can eradicate religion just like we eradicated the belief that the world was flat. If we just sat down and said oh well people will always believe the world is flat people need to believe the world is flat and we should just accept that people believe the world is flat, people would still believe the world is flat! The world can not be a better place if we sit down and accept things it can only get worse if we don't speak out and stand up to it. And there is nothing irrational about that.
Also I can prove that humans do not need religion. I am living proof of it. I have not needed religion for 8 years now and I'm doing much better than when I believed in god. Religion holds humanity back there is little redeeming value in it end of statement.
Now you can keep presenting the same argument over and over again and gain nothing or you can keep reading and gain some insight on how your opinion is not the only one! You might think you can keep beating us over the head with it but it will never stick because it is simply just not true!
I think I have just realized what this "hate religion" attitude is. I have been out of touch for much too long. This must be Militant Atheism that I am encountering. I have certainly heard of it, but I have never encountered it. And what has happened here is that the belief in God has been shed only to be replaced by a belief that religion must be eradicated. And since this belief believes it is under attack, it logically turns into hate. My 50 years as an atheist has been a process of shedding more beliefs and while trying unsuccessfully to re-attach myself to other beliefs, I have finally reached a point where I exist more within a framework of assumptions. So now I will narrow my statement. Should we continue here or go back to a new post? MILITANT ATHEISM IS NOT RATIONAL!
I wouldn't call it militant atheism. It's just that some people believe the world would be a better place without religion. Oh, and BTW, I have come to the conclusion that you are not a troll. You have my apologies. But as you said, you do need to polish your internet etiquette as you say. We have so many theists come on here just to antagonize us that we have developed a defense mechanism that tries to weed them out. That's probably not a good thing.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 06, 2015, 11:13:10 AM
You need to lighten up, Mike. You are becoming too personal. You should know by that I am fairly oblivious to insult. I would prefer you revert back to your more enlightened viewpoints.
Probably. But all you do is make pronouncements as though you are the expert on each and every point and so much the expert that discussing things with the natives is way too below your station in life. You are as bad and misguided as the theists that visit this place--you spew forth pronouncements and refuse to give any reasons other than you just said it. Apparently you have never met a reason that did not confuse you.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 06, 2015, 12:09:20 PM
Probably. But all you do is make pronouncements as though you are the expert on each and every point and so much the expert that discussing things with the natives is way too below your station in life. You are as bad and misguided as the theists that visit this place--you spew forth pronouncements and refuse to give any reasons other than you just said it. Apparently you have never met a reason that did not confuse you.
Sometimes there has not been anything to discuss. Such as my argument that hating religion is not part of atheism. I don't see anyone confronting me on this. I think I am supposed to believe that everyone is bored with me. That's actually a good way to avoid something you don't want to face. That allows us to continue with our beliefs without having to face them. Religion does it all the time.
Quote from: Desdinova on May 06, 2015, 11:53:16 AM
I wouldn't call it militant atheism. It's just that some people believe the world would be a better place without religion. Oh, and BTW, I have come to the conclusion that you are not a troll. You have my apologies. But as you said, you do need to polish your internet etiquette as you say. We have so many theists come on here just to antagonize us that we have developed a defense mechanism that tries to weed them out. That's probably not a good thing.
Yes, weeding out the trolls is probably a natural defense mechanism. Since this is my first atheist board, do trolls normally come here with creationist crap, moral judgements or what?
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 06, 2015, 04:12:32 PM
Yes, weeding out the trolls is probably a natural defense mechanism. Since this is my first atheist board, do trolls normally come here with creationist crap, moral judgements or what?
Yes, they come here all the time. Look at the ban list or the purgatory thread if you want to see examples. Although there are no live ones in captivity at present.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 06, 2015, 04:06:04 PM
Sometimes there has not been anything to discuss. Such as my argument that hating religion is not part of atheism. I don't see anyone confronting me on this. I think I am supposed to believe that everyone is bored with me. That's actually a good way to avoid something you don't want to face. That allows us to continue with our beliefs without having to face them. Religion does it all the time.
With my posts there has always been something to discuss. You keep say this----"that hating religion is not part of atheism"......why???? You NEVER address why you say that--not reason 1, yet. Partly it's true---and partly it's not. Atheism is 'about' only one thing--the lack of a belief in god/gods. Period. Many atheists hate religion, but not all and you don't have to hate it to be an atheist. I hate it. But I hate organized religion, not personal religion. Any and all organized religions are about one thing--power. And that usually includes money. All the holy books and all the rules of god and all the trappings involved in organized religion means they will be destructive and that only one thing matters--the gathering and keeping of power. Can you name me any organized religion for which what I just said is not true????? Ever????? This is something to discuss. But are you going to fart out again??????
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 06, 2015, 05:34:04 PM
With my posts there has always been something to discuss. You keep say this----"that hating religion is not part of atheism"......why???? You NEVER address why you say that--not reason 1, yet. Partly it's true---and partly it's not. Atheism is 'about' only one thing--the lack of a belief in god/gods. Period. Many atheists hate religion, but not all and you don't have to hate it to be an atheist. I hate it. But I hate organized religion, not personal religion. Any and all organized religions are about one thing--power. And that usually includes money. All the holy books and all the rules of god and all the trappings involved in organized religion means they will be destructive and that only one thing matters--the gathering and keeping of power. Can you name me any organized religion for which what I just said is not true????? Ever????? This is something to discuss. But are you going to fart out again??????
I think we are addressing apples and oranges. I have no reason to hate religion (christianity in particular) but that does not mean that others dont. Many may have good reasons My issue was that it seemed like hating religion was being promoted as a requirement in order to be athiest. I don't think I am being fair to push this any further because some including yourself may have reason to hate it
I've certainly encountered irrational atheists. Atheists who believe in alien abductions, quack medicine, conspiracy nuttery, etc. Just lacking belief in god is no guarantee of rationality.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 02, 2015, 02:14:47 PM
Many Athiest are not rational. Sure we like to pride ourselves about how rational we are, etc. But we think with our new found wisdom we have reached some plateau of understanding. We have not. All we have gained is simply the realization there is no God. But what we have not realized is that God is just a concept and the concept still EXISTS! We cannot eradicate a concept that has existed for a hundreds of thousands of years fulfilling the needs of billions of people regardless of how they used or abused it. So now we have a choice. We can remembrance and recognize that religion still has value. And we understand it or go all the way down to hating it. Understanding it should be the choice for the rational mind. Hate is not a product of the rational mind. By understanding it we take a more detached viewpoint. We relinquish our egos, fears, doubts etc that are attached to us. We look again and observe it deciding how this should be addressed. We are the components of the collective mind of HUMANITY. With regard all of human knowledge we then begin to the value of religion. But unfortunately we generally only view things from the view one component viewing another component. We miss the big picture because our point of view was so limited. But the components can still expand their points of view. All we need do is detach ourselves and try to assume a larger point of view. We then strive for the OBJECTIVE point of view and become open minded. We still have the foundation of human knowledge and we are now able to see and discard what is not relevant or simply wrong. This is the foundation of SCIENCE. Now all I am saying here i that this is a concept within my own mind and think this is a very rational viewpoint. I decide within myself what I want to experience. When I encounter something that does not fit in my rational view then I choose what action to take. If it grabs my interest I generally pursue and confront it. That is why I am here. Now I am trying to say all this in very systematic yet elementary terms. Religious people having been placed in combat mode love to say that atheism has no moral basis in which to exist. But that is WRONG. One of the very first concepts was when we realized that we worked best groups. Therefore the logical observation was that it was better to get along with each other. So we created the principle of the Golden Rule which is also called by many other names and was incorporated into all our religion. But they cannot lay claim to that or many other morals. They appear to me as being self evident. But here we are having relinquished God and now asking "NOW WHAT?" This is what needs to be addressed here. Rather than running off people who don't conform or we don't understand we should confront them in a logical manner without attacking them. Now some might be sociopaths and those are probably the trolls being referred to. So we need to examine them closely and as rationally as possible. Can I now become accepted in your group? :-)
They attacked us 1st dimwit, and are a bunch psychopaths who need to see a a psychologist! You want us to look at them rationally? Are you High?! Religion was at 1st a way to understand shit but now we know its illogical and anti rational along with a shit ton of negative effects, AND IT COULD BE THE REASON THE WORLD IS FUCKED UP!