I wish I had more time to socialize here because I can see there are some very nice people that I would really enjoy talking with. But I don't so I am ducking in and out. Again I am atheist so I would like to ask if most people here arrive at this position from assuming an open minded point of view and realizing there is not a god or from rejecting the idea of a god based on personal encounters with the concept. And do you think you have become more open minded from becoming atheist?
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking here but I'll take a wack at it.
I think atheists are more open minded to ideas represented by science. But I have a hard time to really understand what it means to be open minded since that is subjective in the first place. In my opinion I am open minded and if you ask most people they will say they are open minded. So asking some one if they are open minded is kind of pointless. All humans show moments where they are open minded and moments when they are not open or receptive to new, or external ideas. So how do you measure open mindedness? I don't know.
AS far as rejecting the idea of god it is based on (and I think most will agree) the fact that there is no demonstrable proof of a god or gods existence. Just like you don't believe in the tooth fairy because there is no proof for it's existence so then atheists do not believe in god. Other than that we all have different opinion and morals that we subscribe too. Most of us do agree on a lot of issues but the only thing that makes one an atheists is the lack of belief in gods.
I have always been an atheist but I don't consider myself to be very open minded.
Quote from: doorknob on April 29, 2015, 08:56:22 AM
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking here but I'll take a wack at it.
I think atheists are more open minded to ideas represented by science. But I have a hard time to really understand what it means to be open minded since that is subjective in the first place. In my opinion I am open minded and if you ask most people they will say they are open minded. So asking some one if they are open minded is kind of pointless. All humans show moments where they are open minded and moments when they are not open or receptive to new, or external ideas. So how do you measure open mindedness? I don't know.
AS far as rejecting the idea of god it is based on (and I think most will agree) the fact that there is no demonstrable proof of a god or gods existence. Just like you don't believe in the tooth fairy because there is no proof for it's existence so then atheists do not believe in god. Other than that we all have different opinion and morals that we subscribe too. Most of us do agree on a lot of issues but the only thing that makes one an atheists is the lack of belief in gods.
It seems reasonable to think that atheists are open minded toward science but only if becoming atheist were the result of viewing science. And I am not convinced that atheists reach that viewpoint from only observing science. Open minded for me is usually to take a rather detached viewpoint and then start wondering why things are the way they are. So for me to understand a religious viewpoint I try to put myself in their position. Would you consider doing that as being open minded?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 08:37:08 AM
I wish I had more time to socialize here because I can see there are some very nice people that I would really enjoy talking with. But I don't so I am ducking in and out. Again I am atheist so I would like to ask if most people here arrive at this position from assuming an open minded point of view and realizing there is not a god or from rejecting the idea of a god based on personal encounters with the concept. And do you think you have become more open minded from becoming atheist?
Jesus Giveme---you give me a headache. You seem to be a master at slinging mud at a wall an see what sticks. You seem to love to try to start a conversation with generalized terms, terms you fail to define. In this instance, are you asking an 'either--or' question? If so what is the 'either' and what is the 'or'? The more I read it the more confused I become. What do you mean by 'open minded'? I like to think I gathered facts for both sides of the issue. I read the religious material, their source material; and I read the anti-religious material as well. I used what can loosely be called the historical method in that I used, as best I could, the source material from both sides. And I read the commentary from both sides. This was not an overnight process; in fact it is an ongoing process. So, is that open minded? Since I am convinced that a god/gods do not exist, does that make me closed minded??
Not necessarily. It depends on what you mean by 'open mindedness'.
There are every kind of people among atheists as there are among believers. Conservative, superstitous, racist, sexist, nationalist...etc There are atheists who thinks homosexuality is an 'unnatural thing'. Atheists can be pretty bigotic too.
But usually they are more likely to be open minded, because most of the bullshit is based on religion, caused by religion.
I started wondering why I could not see or talk with God when I was very young, but being that He's very mysterious and all that, I left the door wide open, even when his description made no sense. I read the Bible. I read the Iliad. They both seemed equally silly. I've always liked science even in elementary school, more in high school, and in College... Wow! I took courses in Zoology, Botany, Geology and Anthropology. It all made sense to me.
I took classes in basic philosophy including philosophy of religion. We spent a lot of time reading the philosophical "masters'" logical proofs of God. They were down right silly, even before reading the logical rebuttals from other "masters. I still called myself a Christian for many years, because being an atheist sounded to me too much like being a "bloody axe murderer."
I like what Doorknob said. I'm open minded about some things, but after sincerely honest attempts at finding God over the years, I've pretty much turned my mind off to religion. No one ever comes up with any new arguments, and no one will. I'm not going to waste my time listening. I suppose that's close minded, but for most of my life, I gave religion an honest shot. It's not like I'm open or closed minded. It's more like I was never really cut out for religion. There were too many unanswered questions. There are too many questions that by their nature are unanswerable, and always will be.
An understanding of science didn't help my search for god, but more than science was an introduction to logic. But of course, science is 98% logic, anyway. But logic! What a way to break down ideas, sort out the chaff, and straighten out what you know from what you don't know. My lessons in logic were probably the biggest thing that killed my religion.
I'm not open minded to things that are based only on subjective experiences, or merely opinions not based on anything but superstitious nonsense, like Creationism, spiritualism, pseudo-science, fortune telling, fairies and fairy tales etc. Science has nothing to do with it, just common sense about ancient myths being just that, myths, made up stories to explain the unknown. As to science, it is self correcting and open minded just for that reason, religion is not, so it is close minded. Quit yanking our chain and being disingenuous about being an atheist! Not everything has two sides to the story. Science, as well as atheism, are both incompatible with religion, sound logic and critical thinking. :fU: Solitary
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 29, 2015, 10:53:39 AM
Jesus Giveme---you give me a headache. You seem to be a master at slinging mud at a wall an see what sticks. You seem to love to try to start a conversation with generalized terms, terms you fail to define. In this instance, are you asking an 'either--or' question? If so what is the 'either' and what is the 'or'? The more I read it the more confused I become. What do you mean by 'open minded'? I like to think I gathered facts for both sides of the issue. I read the religious material, their source material; and I read the anti-religious material as well. I used what can loosely be called the historical method in that I used, as best I could, the source material from both sides. And I read the commentary from both sides. This was not an overnight process; in fact it is an ongoing process. So, is that open minded? Since I am convinced that a god/gods do not exist, does that make me closed minded??
Now you are cracking me up, Mike. I see what you are saying. Whether you are open minded or not is your determination. My question arose because I wanted to see other viewpoints on how the process of becoming an atheist occurs. I will use that information in considering other evaluations. I am not making value judgements at this time. Thank you for helping me out again.
Quote from: Solitary on April 29, 2015, 12:14:00 PM
I'm not open minded to things that are based only on subjective experiences, or merely opinions not based on anything but superstitious nonsense, like Creationism, spiritualism, pseudo-science, fortune telling, fairies and fairy tales etc. Science has nothing to do with it, just common sense about ancient myths being just that, myths, made up stories to explain the unknown. As to science, it is self correcting and open minded just for that reason, religion is not, so it is close minded. Quit yanking our chain and being disingenuous about being an atheist! Not everything has two sides to the story. Science, as well as atheism, are both incompatible with religion, sound logic and critical thinking. :fU: Solitary
Don't mean to be disingenuous. I am not sure I agree with your last statement though. I don't think you meant quite what you said. Science is compatible. Atheism is not compatible but only with religion. Going further religion is compatible with sound logic and critical thinking since we have no way to disprove God. As for myself God is ludicrous. But there were very sound reasons to have created God and very sound reasons to continue. Looking from the religious viewpoint there is no reason to think God does not exist. That is thereby very rational.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 08:37:08 AM
And do you think you have become more open minded from becoming atheist?
No, I did not become more open minded by becoming and atheist, I'm an atheist because of my open mindedness.
And the parties, the parties are awesome ! :)
Quote from: Termin on April 29, 2015, 01:02:43 PM
No, I did not become more open minded by becoming and atheist, I'm an atheist because of my open mindedness.
And the parties, the parties are awesome ! :)
I am probably going to now start annoying you too. But are you still able to see the religious viewpoint?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:10:22 PM
I am probably going to now start annoying you too. But are you still able to see the religious viewpoint?
What are they against awesome parties ? :) .. Just kidding
Could you be a bit more specific in your question ?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
Going further religion is compatible with sound logic and critical thinking since we have no way to disprove God.
This comment is total and utter bullshit. Religion is not only illogical it requires no critical thinking what so ever. You simply have to believe in something that you can't see feel or touch. And the "proof" that is offered is so twisted and full of holes that it requires one to disconnect from their brain functions. How can you even make such a statement? Am I reading it properly? Am I taking it the wrong context?
Quote from: Desdinova on April 29, 2015, 01:24:16 PM
This comment is total and utter bullshit. Religion is not only illogical it requires no critical thinking what so ever. You simply have to believe in something that you can't see feel or touch. And the "proof" that is offered is so twisted and full of holes that it requires one to disconnect from their brain functions. How can you even make such a statement? Am I reading it properly? Am I taking it the wrong context?
It is clearly logical if you start with the premise that god exists. Our civilization is built on that concept. We are just trying to change the premise. That is the religious viewpoint.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:36:54 PM
It is clearly logical if you start with the premise that god exists. Our civilization is built on that concept. We are just trying to change the premise. That is the religious viewpoint.
You are speaking of justification, not logic.
Quote from: Termin on April 29, 2015, 01:16:18 PM
What are they against awesome parties ? :) .. Just kidding
Could you be a bit more specific in your question ?
Oh, it's nothing really. It's just that we have this huge backlash going on with religion again. When I was young it seemed to me that it had sort of died down. For example, my biology teacher in high school had no problem teaching evolution even though he was deeply religious. Now that this issue has again become such a divisive issue the flames are being fanned from every direction. I see religion as something that needs to be re-absorbed into society. The need for it clearly still exists. So here we are still trying to reconcile the differences. Religion just needs to continue evolving and we need to be tolerant as best we can.
Quote from: Termin on April 29, 2015, 01:45:31 PM
You are speaking of justification, not logic.
So is religion still justifiable?
Quote from: Termin on April 29, 2015, 01:45:31 PM
You are speaking of justification, not logic.
We are both still amoebas. What' our next step if we don't first go extinct?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:52:53 PM
The need for it clearly still exists.
Why does it need to exist? Give me a reason "Givemeareason".
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:52:53 PM
I see religion as something that needs to be re-absorbed into society. The need for it clearly still exists.
Really. What needs do you see that it addresses.
I disagree strongly. I see religion as being nonsense and illogical in all it's fallacies. I'm gonna call bullshit here as I see religion as a hindrance in every sense. It is graffiti of the mind. Beautiful minds become desecrated by religion.
I see religion as unnecessary an in fact it needs to be abolished. Look at how much progress has been stifled by religion! Who knows where we'd be if people read biology instead of the bible. Or hell even Harry Potter would be less of a waist of time!
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:36:54 PMIt is clearly logical if you start with the premise that god exists. Our civilization is built on that concept.
Not sure what you mean about "our civilization". Many civilizations have existed historically and multiple civilizations are around today.
If you're talking about Western civilization (sort of a misnomer, since it's not actually a civilization but a set of political and social norms), theism in general and Christianity in particular is long-standing and widespread. But you know what else was long-standing and widespread? Slavery. Human and animal sacrifice. Belief in magic. Monarchism.
Things change.
QuoteWe are just trying to change the premise.
We are trying to change the social order, yes. And for good reason. The superstitions of the past ill suit the present, let alone the future. And their old prejudices and judgments - considered backwards even by their contemporaries - are even less attractive.
Quote from: Desdinova on April 29, 2015, 02:08:43 PM
Why does it need to exist? Give me a reason "Givemeareason".
To address the needs of humans. It relieves them from fear and offers them a sense of belonging. The same reasons it offered when early humans were struggling to survive. Many of us haven't changed that much. How otherwise could we address their needs?
Quote from: doorknob on April 29, 2015, 02:33:32 PM
I disagree strongly. I see religion as being nonsense and illogical in all it's fallacies. I'm gonna call bullshit here as I see religion as a hindrance in every sense. It is graffiti of the mind. Beautiful minds become desecrated by religion.
I see religion as unnecessary an in fact it needs to be abolished. Look at how much progress has been stifled by religion! Who knows where we'd be if people read biology instead of the bible. Or hell even Harry Potter would be less of a waist of time!
Many people don't want to be educated. They like things simple. And the way US society seems to be moving, ignorance is on the rise. We need to address that problem first.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 03:01:49 PM
To address the needs of humans. It relieves them from fear and offers them a sense of belonging. The same reasons it offered when early humans were struggling to survive. Many of us haven't changed that much. How otherwise could we address their needs?
Fear of what? Please explain.
A sense of belonging can be achieved without religion. Join a book club.
Early humans did not have the scientific knowledge we have know. We know why earthquakes happen, and its not because a god is displeased. This point holds no credence.
We as a species are entirely different than early humans. We HAVE changed that much.
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 29, 2015, 02:55:16 PM
Not sure what you mean about "our civilization". Many civilizations have existed historically and multiple civilizations are around today.
If you're talking about Western civilization (sort of a misnomer, since it's not actually a civilization but a set of political and social norms), theism in general and Christianity in particular is long-standing and widespread. But you know what else was long-standing and widespread? Slavery. Human and animal sacrifice. Belief in magic. Monarchism.
Things change.
We are trying to change the social order, yes. And for good reason. The superstitions of the past ill suit the present, let alone the future. And their old prejudices and judgments - considered backwards even by their contemporaries - are even less attractive.
Civilization is global. The majority are still superstitious. Wouldn't it be easier to influence irrational superstitions first and then move on to tearing down the greatest religion in the world. That is what we are doing. Progress is being made. Some of us atheists just need to grasp the bigger picture.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:54:28 PM
So is religion still justifiable?
This question is not relevant to the topic at hand which was.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:54:28 PM
It is clearly logical if you start with the premise that god exists. Our civilization is built on that concept. We are just trying to change the premise. That is the religious viewpoint.
It is never logical to begin with an unsubstantiated premise.
Quote from: Desdinova on April 29, 2015, 03:09:50 PM
Fear of what? Please explain.
A sense of belonging can be achieved without religion. Join a book club.
Early humans did not have the scientific knowledge we have know. We know why earthquakes happen, and its not because a god is displeased. This point holds no credence.
We as a species are entirely different than early humans. We HAVE changed that much.
The big questions (Why am I here, etc.) remain unanswered. Some people like to have everything spelled out for them. Religion gives them that.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 01:52:53 PM
. Religion just needs to continue evolving and we need to be tolerant as best we can.
I thought you were an Athiest ?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 02:03:11 PM
We are both still amoebas. What' our next step if we don't first go extinct?
Next step for what ?
Quote from: Termin on April 29, 2015, 03:38:45 PM
This question is not relevant to the topic at hand which was.
It is never logical to begin with an unsubstantiated premise.
I agree but it happens all the time.
Quote from: Termin on April 29, 2015, 03:41:25 PM
Next step for what ?
Our identities right below our names is that of an amoeba. What will we evolve into next?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 03:39:08 PM
The big questions (Why am I here, etc.) remain unanswered. Some people like to have everything spelled out for them. Religion gives them that.
So we need religion to give meaning to life? And religion does that by what? Saying that if we live our lives according to some book of rules we will be rewarded with a trip to heaven? Can we break those rules there? Can I smoke weed? Get drunk? Have sex? Laugh at dirty and irreverent jokes? Be gay? Nope. I get to worship for eternity a being I have never seen, doesn't seem to care about us and whose own book describes as petty, jealous and quick to anger. So people need this to give meaning to their lives? Give me a break.
Quote from: Desdinova on April 29, 2015, 03:53:53 PM
So we need religion to give meaning to life? And religion does that by what? Saying that if we live our lives according to some book of rules we will be rewarded with a trip to heaven? Can we break those rules there? Can I smoke weed? Get drunk? Have sex? Laugh at dirty and irreverent jokes? Be gay? Nope. I get to worship for eternity a being I have never seen, doesn't seem to care about us and whose own book describes as petty, jealous and quick to anger. So people need this to give meaning to their lives? Give me a break.
Of course it is stupid and ridicululous. But yes, that is exactly what some people need. Have you ever spoken to a fundamentalist Christian? I don't know why atheists even bother hanging out at religious boards. I guess it's entertaining trying to make them look stupid. But they don't listen. The atheists always come out looking like the fools from the religious perspective.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 04:14:41 PM
Have you ever spoken to a fundamentalist Christian? I don't know why atheists even bother hanging out at religious boards. I guess it's entertaining trying to make them look stupid. But they don't listen. The atheists always come out looking like the fools from the religious perspective.
I don't know I guess they do it for the same reason christian come here to preach at us. And I don't necessarily think it's foolish to reach out to Christians. I was a christian too for many years it just took awhile for things to sink in for me. I think it can sink in for them too maybe. It's worth a try any how.
I don't know that atheists look like fools. Christians usually have piss poor arguments so when they get angry they just ban the atheist.
The vast majority of atheists were believers before, the difference for most of us, is simply, we actually decided to read the book(s) with a critical mind. After that, holy crap, what a bunch of fucking stupidity…arguing that it is in anyway not that, is disingenuous and really..really pretty stupid.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 08:37:08 AM
And do you think you have become more open minded from becoming atheist?
I'm convinced every god ever conceived, every religion and anything supernatural is complete nonsense... but I'm really open minded.
(http://i.imgur.com/VD6QogQ.gif)
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 03:31:12 PM
Civilization is global. The majority are still superstitious. Wouldn't it be easier to influence irrational superstitions first and then move on to tearing down the greatest religion in the world. That is what we are doing. Progress is being made. Some of us atheists just need to grasp the bigger picture.
You talk like irrational superstitions haven't already been influenced. Centuries of secularism is one such example. However, that's not enough. Ultimately the bedrock of faith and dogma must be torn down. Pampering people's "need" for superstition doesn't help the process. The bigger picture is a world that doesn't "need" religion.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 29, 2015, 11:18:21 PMI'm convinced every god ever conceived, every religion and anything supernatural is complete nonsense... but I'm really open minded.
I'm of the opinion that this stuff is mistaken. But I'm open-minded in the sense that if any religious tenet can be empirically verified, then I will readily switch my views.
The people who believe this stuff on faith and are forbidden to doubt the core tenets of their religion strike me as the truly close-minded ones.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
Going further religion is compatible with sound logic and critical thinking since we have no way to disprove God.
This is precisely what makes religion incompatible, broadly speaking, with logic and critical thinking. In the religious view, their god is either impervious to rational exploration, or is ever more awkwardly stuffed into all the places that there isn't a generally accepted scientific or rational explanation (the 'god of the gaps'). It amounts to special pleading, and/or moving the goalposts by continually redefining what's meant by 'god' over time.
Now, it is possible for a set of religious belief to be internally consistent -- but consistency does not imply reality, or even rationality. It's completely consistent to say 1) All cats are black, 2) Morris is a cat, therefore 3) Morris is black. That's completely consistent... and has no bearing whatsoever on reality, where not all cats are black.
There are any number of fictional works that are placed in quite internally consistent settings (or that have been retconned into some semblance of consistency when they grew past their creator's expectations, not having been planned as a consistent whole from the beginning), but they're still fiction.
Some of them even manage to maintain a certain consistency while being explicitly non-rational -- Douglas Adams' view of the universe, for example. The more absurd it got, the more normal and appropriate the absurdity seemed.
So I wouldn't confuse internal consistency with logic and critical thinking. They're not always the same thing.
Does open minded mean that a person is willing to believe any and all ideas irrational or not?
Is a person close minded if he categorically rejects the idea that elephants telepathically communicate with Martians?
Can we even say there is any virtue in being open minded? How is the term defined? The more I think about this, the more meaningless and useless open or close mindedness becomes.
The major strength of science is that it puts thinking in a box of a controlled environment. It disqualifies ideas outside that box. Such ideas are the irrational, the irrelevant, and those which are not falsifiable. Such close mindedness is the virtue of science. So we really can't say close mindedness is bad.
On the other hand, religion does not disqualify the irrational, the irrelevant, and the falsifiable. Any idea is open to celebrated approval, except those that are not. There is no way to separate real from unreal, except by authoritative pontification of a self appointed or widely recognized guru. Religion is neither open or close minded. In fact, the issue of open or closed becomes totally irrelevant.
Quote from: SGOS on April 30, 2015, 07:15:25 AM
Can we even say there is any virtue in being open minded? How is the term defined? The more I think about this, the more meaningless and useless open or close mindedness becomes.
The major strength of science is that it puts thinking in a box of a controlled environment. It disqualifies ideas outside that box. Such ideas are the irrational, the irrelevant, and those which are not falsifiable. Such close mindedness is the virtue of science. So we really can't say close mindedness is bad.
I agree, which is why when people bring up being open-minded I enjoy saying I'm not. Open-minded and closed-minded are poorly defined terms and overgeneralize how people process ideas. People are more receptive to ideas that fit with their values and view of how the world works and less receptive to ideas that contradict their values and views. Whether someone is receptive or not depends on the person and the idea. Being open to every idea isn't necessarily good and there is value in skepticism.
For those who are truly open-minded I have crystals that absorb negative emotions at very reasonable prices.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 30, 2015, 08:14:06 AM
I agree, which is why when people bring up being open-minded I enjoy saying I'm not.
It was actually your post awhile back that got me thinking about meaning and value of "mindedness".
GSO and SGOS, both of you caused me to stop and think a bit more about open and closed mindedness. I agree--too much importance is given to being open-minded; whatever that means. It's one of those catch words/phrases that don't get looked at closely enough. The more closely one looks at those terms, the less meaning they have. Much like the terms 'logical' and 'sincere'. Just because one uses logic does not mean that the final outcome is logical or true. Potolomy suggested a couple of thousand years ago that the earth was the center of the universe. It was accepted as fact for way too long. There were many logical observations made based on that fact--that the earth was the center of the universe. But that did not keep those observations from being false. When the word 'logical' or the phrase 'that is only logical' is used, one needs to look closely at that and try to understand where the logic comes from. Sincere is used way too often to excuse bad behavior. Just because somebody has a sincere belief about something does not in any way make it accurate or true. "He is a sincere christian" is used to denote a person who is just such a great guy, because he is sincere. Hell, to me it means he is especially blind, close-minded, and willfully ignorant. He revels in his stupidity. For me it is a danger signal--stay away. So, I guess I'm becoming more and more close-minded as I age.
I believe getting drunk and driving while drunk is wrong....but I am open-minded to it.
I believe fucking little children is wrong....but I am open-minded to it
I believe throwing your momma off a train is wrong....but I am open-minded to it.
Yeah, being open-minded can mean lots of things.
Quote from: aitm on April 30, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
I believe throwing your momma off a train is wrong....but I am open-minded to it.
Yeah, being open-minded can mean lots of things.
Somebody was --they made a movie about it.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 12:46:44 PM
Don't mean to be disingenuous. I am not sure I agree with your last statement though. I don't think you meant quite what you said. Science is compatible. Atheism is not compatible but only with religion. Going further religion is compatible with sound logic and critical thinking since we have no way to disprove God. As for myself God is ludicrous. But there were very sound reasons to have created God and very sound reasons to continue. Looking from the religious viewpoint there is no reason to think God does not exist. That is thereby very rational.
Science is not compatible with religion because science deals with evidence, logic and sound reasoning and is self correcting and tentative. Religion is about absolute knowledge and feelings, or delusions and subjective experience. There may be pragmatic reasons for religion, but that doesn't prove it is true. Pragmatism only proves that it is correct when it fails. "Looking from the religious viewpoint" That could also be said about people that are insane. You are being disingenuous because you call yourself an atheist and ask questions from a religious viewpoint. This entire topic is irrational and not logical because it is based on confirmation bias which no atheist would ever do. Atheism is not based on confirmation bias, it is based on logic and common sense not feelings and hopes or fears like religion is. We don't go from an atheist point of view and confirm it, we go by the view if something has no reliable evidence to support it, and the things it says have and can happen are impossible in the world we live in like immaculate births that produce male offspring, and people coming back after being dead with rigor. Solitary
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 30, 2015, 08:14:06 AM
I agree, which is why when people bring up being open-minded I enjoy saying I'm not. Open-minded and closed-minded are poorly defined terms and overgeneralize how people process ideas. People are more receptive to ideas that fit with their values and view of how the world works and less receptive to ideas that contradict their values and views. Whether someone is receptive or not depends on the person and the idea. Being open to every idea isn't necessarily good and there is value in skepticism.
For those who are truly open-minded I have crystals that absorb negative emotions at very reasonable prices.
It has become clear to me that I am really just asking you guys to rehash the same old ideas that have undoubtedly been gone over countless times before. I need to settle down here, form an identity, and start participating.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 01:56:57 PM
It has become clear to me that I am really just asking you guys to rehash the same old ideas that have undoubtedly been gone over countless times before. I need to settle down here, form an identity, and start participating.
No shit, Sherlock!! You have not answered one question, yet. You evade or ignore. I doubt you are capable of defending any statement you have made. I'm really unsure of why you even bother to visit any board. When you come to a board, start threads, you give the impression you are interested in learning something. Apparently I am wrong in your case. You are not a troll--just a zero. You don't really participate in any discussion. You are not even fuzzy--you are not even there.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 30, 2015, 08:14:06 AM
I agree, which is why when people bring up being open-minded I enjoy saying I'm not. Open-minded and closed-minded are poorly defined terms and overgeneralize how people process ideas. People are more receptive to ideas that fit with their values and view of how the world works and less receptive to ideas that contradict their values and views. Whether someone is receptive or not depends on the person and the idea. Being open to every idea isn't necessarily good and there is value in skepticism.
For those who are truly open-minded I have crystals that absorb negative emotions at very reasonable prices.
Being open minded is simply the ability to assume another point of view. I like to be as open minded as possible but of course I cannot escape being subjective. If someone is really stupid I might even assume that point of view. But of course one should be skeptical when taking that point of view.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 03:11:03 PM
No shit, Sherlock!! You have not answered one question, yet. You evade or ignore. I doubt you are capable of defending any statement you have made. I'm really unsure of why you even bother to visit any board. When you come to a board, start threads, you give the impression you are interested in learning something. Apparently I am wrong in your case. You are not a troll--just a zero. You don't really participate in any discussion. You are not even fuzzy--you are not even there.
You get excited too easily, Mike. But nothing like being blunt. In my view we are all zeros but we try to become something. Don't you agree.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 03:20:25 PM
You get excited too easily, Mike. But nothing like being blunt. In my view we are all zeros but we try to become something. Don't you agree.
:)))) Really? That is 'excited'???? Kinda calm, for me. I love your name here--Givemeareason. To date, you have not given one reason for anything you have asked about. It seems you don't have reasons for anything. You are so busy being open minded to everybody. Chameleon would be a better name for you. Or BlowingInTheWind.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 03:38:18 PM
:)))) Really? That is 'excited'???? Kinda calm, for me. I love your name here--Givemeareason. To date, you have not given one reason for anything you have asked about. It seems you don't have reasons for anything. You are so busy being open minded to everybody. Chameleon would be a better name for you. Or BlowingInTheWind.
If I am asking about something it is not up to me to give reasons. I am asking you for reasons. Why do you think I have to give reasons? I can give reasons for many things. I think I am pretty opinionated as people go. But I certainly don't think a person becomes opinionated unless a question occurs to them. The problem with most opinions though is when people don't ask enough questions. I think we are now making rather fiundamental observations of human behavior.
Some people are so open minded their brains fall out! :wall: :popcorn: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on April 30, 2015, 04:06:22 PM
Some people are so open minded their brains fall out! :wall: :popcorn: Solitary
Are you being opinionated? I have never seen anyone whose brains have fallen out. :-)
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 03:14:47 PM
Being open minded is simply the ability to assume another point of view. I like to be as open minded as possible but of course I cannot escape being subjective. If someone is really stupid I might even assume that point of view. But of course one should be skeptical when taking that point of view.
I think of the ability to assume another's point of view as a component of empathy rather than being open-minded, although we have already discussed how "open-minded" is poorly defined. I consider open-minded as being receptive to an idea. For example, I think I have some understanding of the appeal of Christianity and what it is like to be a Christian. Christians feel a connection to something bigger than themselves, that they are not alone, that death is not the end, that justice will eventually prevail, that there is always God's love and eternal grace, that there is a grand plan and a purpose to life. They are connected to a fellowship who are available for support and they have traditions which provide structure and comfort. I have some understanding of the Christian point of view but I am not open-minded, I am not receptive, to the idea of Christianity or becoming a Christian. I see their point of view and but I am not receptive because my own point of view is too different and incompatible. I could say I was open-minded to Christianity, because to some people being open-minded is associated with being fair and reasonable, but I'm honest with myself enough to know I am not really open-minded on this topic. I can't think of an argument or evidence that would make me accept the Bible as the word of God and only through Jesus can someone be saved.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 03:54:00 PM
If I am asking about something it is not up to me to give reasons. I am asking you for reasons. Why do you think I have to give reasons? I can give reasons for many things. I think I am pretty opinionated as people go. But I certainly don't think a person becomes opinionated unless a question occurs to them. The problem with most opinions though is when people don't ask enough questions. I think we are now making rather fiundamental observations of human behavior.
Why do I think you should give reasons? I guess because, (stupid me) that we would have a discussion. How can you have a discussion if ideas and reasons aren't discussed? I don't care about other opinions--just yours. That is what a discussion is--a give and take between two people--and I guess whoever else on this forum wants to join in. As of yet you have not given one reason for anything. That leads me to believe you are basically fucking with us. What other conclusion can I come up with???
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 30, 2015, 05:44:59 PM
I think of the ability to assume another's point of view as a component of empathy rather than being open-minded, although we have already discussed how "open-minded" is poorly defined. I consider open-minded as being receptive to an idea. For example, I think I have some understanding of the appeal of Christianity and what it is like to be a Christian. Christians feel a connection to something bigger than themselves, that they are not alone, that death is not the end, that justice will eventually prevail, that there is always God's love and eternal grace, that there is a grand plan and a purpose to life. They are connected to a fellowship who are available for support and they have traditions which provide structure and comfort. I have some understanding of the Christian point of view but I am not open-minded, I am not receptive, to the idea of Christianity or becoming a Christian. I see their point of view and but I am not receptive because my own point of view is too different and incompatible. I could say I was open-minded to Christianity, because to some people being open-minded is associated with being fair and reasonable, but I'm honest with myself enough to know I am not really open-minded on this topic. I can't think of an argument or evidence that would make me accept the Bible as the word of God and only through Jesus can someone be saved.
That is very rational nor could I do such. I wish fundamentalists could view us as something other than militant god haters though.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 06:29:55 PM
Why do I think you should give reasons? I guess because, (stupid me) that we would have a discussion. How can you have a discussion if ideas and reasons aren't discussed? I don't care about other opinions--just yours. That is what a discussion is--a give and take between two people--and I guess whoever else on this forum wants to join in. As of yet you have not given one reason for anything. That leads me to believe you are basically fucking with us. What other conclusion can I come up with???
I am not sure what you are referring to any more. My answers are not usually yes or no. I often don't think that way. I may be the unfocused philosopher you referred to at least while I have been here. I don't see black and white well so it is difficult to take that point of view without becoming dishonest. And I am not much of a politician.
and I am sure they wish we could view them as something other than raving homophobic, misogynistic racists……but that seems unlikely as they have no intention of stopping eh?
Quote from: aitm on April 30, 2015, 07:14:46 PM
and I am sure they wish we could view them as something other than raving homophobic, misogynistic racists……but that seems unlikely as they have no intention of stopping eh?
Then it's back to war.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 07:01:28 PM
I am not sure what you are referring to any more. My answers are not usually yes or no. I often don't think that way. I may be the unfocused philosopher you referred to at least while I have been here. I don't see black and white well so it is difficult to take that point of view without becoming dishonest. And I am not much of a politician.
And you definitely not a conversationalist. Not seeing black and white is different than not having an opinion at all. And you don't have any--or any you can articulate.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 08:20:05 PM
And you definitely not a conversationalist. Not seeing black and white is different than not having an opinion at all. And you don't have any--or any you can articulate.
We just haven't encountered all my opinions yet. Say something really hard right conservative and we can probably really get into it. How about abortion, creationism, guns, Fox news, free trade, the meaning of life.....
Much popcorn. Very wow.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 08:48:50 PM
We just haven't encountered all my opinions yet. Say something really hard right conservative and we can probably really get into it. How about abortion, creationism, guns, Fox news, free trade, the meaning of life.....
Have a good time with your opinions. I'm finished trying to have a one sided conversation with myself.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 07:25:38 PM
Then it's back to war.
well its kind of a one sided war wouldn't you say? I mean, all we ask is that true freedom of religion should and must imply freedom from religion while they insist that their religion be the standard of the entire world and everyone else must kiss their ass. Put their motto on the money, on buildings, preach it in the schools at a football game at the race track in the office,, I mean, its not even close.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 09:32:35 PM
Have a good time with your opinions. I'm finished trying to have a one sided conversation with myself.
What's wrong with that? I talk to myself all the time. :-)
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 09:32:35 PM
Have a good time with your opinions. I'm finished trying to have a one sided conversation with myself.
He's like MozartLink.... but with shorter comments
Quote from: aitm on April 30, 2015, 09:35:51 PM
well its kind of a one sided war wouldn't you say? I mean, all we ask is that true freedom of religion should and must imply freedom from religion while they insist that their religion be the standard of the entire world and everyone else must kiss their ass. Put their motto on the money, on buildings, preach it in the schools at a football game at the race track in the office,, I mean, its not even close.
That is all just retaliation. And I hate it too. But this war has been growing and it may be just the inevitable consequence of being increasingly unable to remain isolated.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 09:51:22 PM
That is all just retaliation. And I hate it too. But this war has been growing and it may be just the inevitable consequence of being increasingly unable to remain isolated.
The big difference is the internet. The availability to find information far quicker and with no one looking over your shoulder, access to real science and logic is available to anyone now. This is the driving force for rational and intelligent thought which means less religiosity among the masses. The war is not such a war as an awakening, it will, hopefully continue to grow and there is no real way to stop it.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on April 30, 2015, 09:45:49 PM
He's like MozartLink.... but with shorter comments
on the floor over here!
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 06:29:55 PM
That leads me to believe you are basically fucking with us. What other conclusion can I come up with???
Definitely fucking with us. Definitely fucking with us.(http://www.brokencredit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/Lost-Note-Rain-Main.jpg)
Quote from: Desdinova on May 01, 2015, 10:58:50 AM
Definitely fucking with us. Definitely fucking with us.
(http://www.brokencredit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/Lost-Note-Rain-Main.jpg)
Wow! One of my favorite movies--and I see the link! :))
What in the hell thinks we can't see religion from their view point? We do see it from their viewpoint, just like we see Santa from a small child's view point. That doesn't mean we have to, after all, we are adults aren't we? And yet there are those here that think he is not a troll---maybe not, but he sure is childish and stupid for being an atheist. :wall: Solitary