I've been raised to believe that God is the most merciful of those who show mercy. In fact, one of His names is The Merciful. So, I guess that He's not all-merciful. But is this description true? Consider this:
Given that:
1. God is all-knowing, all-wise and all-powerful
2. Humans have free will
3. Disbelievers anger God
4. Disbelievers will burn in hell forever
Case study:
1. God knows that if He creates person X that X will CHOOSE to reject Him
2. God knows that X will anger Him
3. God knows that X will burn in hell forever
4. God creates X
5. Therefore, God is all-wise and He's the most merciful of those who show mercy
I don't think that the conclusion follows from the premises at all.
Therefore, God is all-wise:
How? What is the wisdom behind creating X? God will be angry with X, and X will burn in hell forever. Nobody wins.
Therefore, God is the most merciful of those who show mercy:
God knows that X will be created only to (choose to) burn in hell, and He creates X. Why does God allow this to happen? Does that make Him merciful? Again, what is the wisdom behind creating X? Is it that God is looking for a reason to torture X? For all I know, if I had that power and knowledge, I wouldn't let that happen.
What do you guys think? Do you agree or not? Why?
Assuming you are talking about the god of the Abrahamic religions, then no, god is not merciful at all. He's a petty, jealous and short-tempered son of a bitch. Anyone who reads the bible can see that.
You should look up a series called "Attack the Text" in which two former Christians do a weekly literary analysis of the Bible. They just got done with Genesis. My favorite running joke of the series is, "If bad things happen to you, don't worry: God will make of your seed a great nation." (So where the fuck is my nation, God!? :P )
Simply read the first two chpt of the babble and you can see that gwad is not merciful or even smart. You will see he is pretty much like you--confused.
You're on the right track, with your deduction that God isn't merciful. Now just take it a step further and realize that he isn't real.
(http://natskep.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/epicurus-is-god-not-1b.jpg)
I think Epicurus covers it.
God is not merciful or he would not send people to hell for an eternity. Period. That's not merciful that's just sadistic.
I've come to the conclusion that the Abrahamic religions make zero sense, they have no logical consistency, and I'm giving up even trying to understand them.
Quote from: doorknob on April 16, 2015, 01:40:56 PM
God is not merciful or he would not send people to hell for an eternity. Period. That's not merciful that's just sadistic.
Right. This is part of the stretching of common sense that religion does. An eternal god that built a vast universe and all that entails creates a group of people for the sole purpose of worshiping him and gives them a short finite time limit to either accept or reject him. On top of that he makes them curious, insightful and continually seeking after the truth and then tells them not to. Makes sense.
Quote from: stromboli on April 16, 2015, 01:36:09 PM
(http://natskep.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/epicurus-is-god-not-1b.jpg)
I think Epicurus covers it.
I think I've seen this somewhere................
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 16, 2015, 01:44:23 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the Abrahamic religions make zero sense, they have no logical consistency, and I'm giving up even trying to understand them.
That is probably wise. I've found that logic and reason makes no impact whatsoever.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on April 16, 2015, 11:44:44 AM
In fact, one of His names is The Merciful.
Also, one of his names is Jealous:
Exodus 34:14
"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"
I doubt that "merciful" and "Jealous" go well together.
Quran 2:30
Sahih International
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
Oh to have back the time squandered debating unmerciful and non-existent god.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on April 16, 2015, 05:13:21 PM
Quran 2:30
Sahih International
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
What is your point with this particular quote?
I read this verse a while back, and it stuck with me. I think that it supports my point. That is: I can't see the wisdom or mercy behind God's act.
This is my understanding of the verse:
When the angels didn't find any logical explanation for why God would create, knowing that His creation will be disobedient, God said in the verse: "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." In other words, God is saying that He works in mysterious ways, and that we can't comprehend His wisdom.
My point, that I was trying to imply, is that some people would use this verse to explain God's act. However, is this a good response? Should I accept that I simply can't comprehend God's wisdom, and trust that He's working for the ultimate good even thought I can't see it?
Quote from: ConfusedShould I accept that I simply can't comprehend God's wisdom, and trust that He's working for the ultimate good even thought I can't see it?
Man, you are really conflicted about this aren't you?
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on April 16, 2015, 06:45:29 PM
I read this verse a while back, and it stuck with me. I think that it supports my point. That is: I can't see the wisdom or mercy behind God's act.
This is my understanding of the verse:
When the angels didn't find any logical explanation for why God would create, knowing that His creation will be disobedient, God said in the verse: "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." In other words, God is saying that He works in mysterious ways, and that we can't comprehend His wisdom.
My point, that I was trying to imply, is that some people would use this verse to explain God's act. However, is this a good response? Should I accept that I simply can't comprehend God's wisdom, and trust that He's working for the ultimate good even thought I can't see it?
One way of attacking this for you could be this: Do some research and find out how that verse came to be. In other words, what is the history of your holy book? Are there several different versions? If so, how did that happen? What is supposed to be the source of the book? How do you know that is accurate? Why would your god, or any god, simply give his word to one man when he could just as easily give it to everyone in every language?
From my point of view, holy books are simply political documents created by men to control other men. Look at the world as a whole. Why would the Arabs get one book, the Jews another, the Hindu's another, the Christians another, etc.???? Would not a creator god have enough power and wisdom to set up one set of instructions?
I don't want to rehash all the shit that's been posted on similar topics from beforehand, but suffice it to say that god in context doesn't make sense.
Why does a perfect god all to himself entire and needing nothing have the need to be worshiped? such that he had to create an entire universe just to house one species on a backwater planet?
Why is he jealous of other gods if he is the only god that exists?
Why does he offer free agency when the only other choice is eternal damnation?
Why did he make man curious and capable of learning and becoming greater by doing so, and then insist he follow a dogmatic belief system that is inherently contradictory and flawed?
Various scientists-Lawrence Krauss, Stephen Hawking and others- have created models wherein a universe could be created without a god. We are only beginning to discover the true makeup of the universe. God is no longer required to create us or to make our existence, so and need is gone. Feel free to explore your universe and ignore the BS that religion presents.