https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
Six minutes and eighteen seconds. I think it is pretty clear. Watch it.
I watched it, what's more I have posted this on another thread. (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=6444.0)
I can also cherry pick stats, make up and shift my definition and make sweeping generalizations.
Gallup says that residents in member countries of the Organisation of the Islamic Cooperation are less likely to view attacks on civilians as justified, so that is 1.4 billion Muslims who are less likely to be radical than non-Muslims, right? Or I could point out that Americans and Israelis are more likely than even Bangladeshis to think that military attacks against civilians are sometimes justified; that Americans are more than 16 times more likely than Egyptians or Qataris to think that attacks against civilians are sometimes justified.
Why not point out that Pew found than only between fifteen and ten percent of Muslims in Kosovo, Turkey, Pakistan, Jordan, Tunisia and less than ten percent in Albania, Russia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Azerbijan, Indonesia, Morocco and Iraq believe suicide bombings can be justified.
Frankly Bill Maher, who I think is often a blow hard, made his case more pervasively than this guy.
The definition of a radical Muslim in that video is based on belief in "sharia law", or "honor killing", or "the killing of civilians is sometimes justified" or "any sympathy for bin Laden", and this leads to over 600+ million radical Muslims. I'n not sure I can buy that. I'm pretty sure if you would poll Americans on similar questions, you would arrive at a very high number of Americans being radical. To me, you have to look of how many would actually act on their "impulse" to kill innocent lives based on ideology. I'm not sure all of those 600+ million Muslims, who expressed an opinion that we consider radical, they would necessarily act on that "impulse". It's true in the past, a good number of Muslims were silence after a terrorist attack. But this is no longer true. Many groups of Muslims are now expressing their outrage, and many individual Muslims are cooperating with the authorities to unmask these terrorists. And we should encourage more to come forward.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
The definition of a radical Muslim in that video is based on belief in "sharia law", or "honor killing", or "the killing of civilians is sometimes justified" or "any sympathy for bin Laden", and this leads to over 600+ million radical Muslims. I'n not sure I can buy that.
That doesn't automatically put them in the terrorist camp, but it suggests a level of sympathy towards terrorism that raises red flags. When is an honor killing ever justified!? That sounds like pretty radical thinking to me. While there is a level of sympathy there, the questions are how deep does it run and how widespread is it? The numbers don't indicate the depth, putting everyone in a position where they must rely on their own opinion.
No Muslim would refer to himself as either moderate or a radical. He is simply a Muslim.
Those labels are only used by the western media and politicians.
No other religion gets this special treatment, for there is no need for it.
The idea of a "Tiny Minority of Extremist" or the "Vast Majority of Moderate" Muslims are but a myth, a fallacy, a feel good panacea that we the non Muslims are constantly repeat to reassure ourselves, and deny reality as long as possible, contrary to all evidence.
We cannot know what Muslims think.
There is no sure way to distinguish between a moderate or a radical Muslim.
Fancy playing Russian roulette?
Ben Affleck is a fucking idiot and needs to get sucked up the vortex of his own asshole. Obama is just a public tool for trying to win votes from the muslims in america.
Islam is one of the most violent and intolerant religions on the planet, you can quite simply type in 'islam' into goodle and find countless stories of islamic extremists who follow violence as there goal in life, but even those who keep claiming islam is a peaceful nation live in ignorance, pushing for the faiths backwards system of how to control women or there thoughts on homosexuals or other religions.
Muslims have pussy wiped public american ultra liberal figures into believing there bullshit.
Yeah, because Christians have no history of violence against anyone else.. :whistle:
I was wondering how soon somebody will mention the Christians.
It is a Pavlovian reflex. Can't be avoided.
One can never discuss Islam without Christianity.
Only in America.
Quote from: pr126 on October 25, 2014, 10:49:30 AM
I was wondering how soon somebody will mention the Christians.
It is a Pavlovian reflex. Can't be avoided.
One can never discuss Islam without Christianity.
Only in America.
Yeah well.. Not everyone can find a boogie man under every bed.. You should get a reality TV show, In Search of the Boogieman..
Come come now, both Christianity and Islam are cancers, just different types. The subject was just on Islam, not Christianity to start
Quote from: Munch on October 25, 2014, 11:01:39 AM
Come come now, both Christianity and Islam are cancers, just different types. The subject was just on Islam, not Christianity to start
Oh..so let's just have nonstop thread after thread about how mean Islam is and ignore Christianity's problems.. Gotcha..
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 25, 2014, 11:09:52 AM
Oh..so let's just have nonstop thread after thread about how mean Islam is and ignore Christianity's problems.. Gotcha..
Well now, there are far more threads on Christianity in the Christian section, but no one mentions Islam there.
Why is that?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm
QuoteA "Tiny Minority of Extremists"?
"Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be
unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination."
Quran 9:73
Have you heard that Islam is a peaceful religion because most Muslims live peacefully and that only a "tiny minority of extremists" practice violence? That's like saying that White supremacy must be perfectly fine since only a tiny minority of racists ever hurt anyone. Neither does it explain why religious violence is largely endemic to Islam, despite the tremendous persecution of religious minorities in Muslim countries.
In truth, even a tiny minority of "1%" of Muslims worldwide translates to 15 million believers - which is hardly an insignificant number. However, the "minority" of Muslims who approve of terrorists, their goals, or their means of achieving them is much greater than this. In fact, it isn't even a true minority in some cases, depending on how goals and targets are defined.
The following polls convey what Muslims say are their attitudes toward terrorism, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the 9/11 attacks, violence in defense of Islam, Sharia, honor killings, and matters concerning assimilation in Western society. The results are all the more astonishing because most of the polls were conducted by organizations with an obvious interest in "discovering" agreeable statistics that downplay any cause for concern.
(These have been compiled over the years, so not all links remain active. We will continue adding to this).
QuoteTerrorism
ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml
Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall).
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Pew Research (2011): 8% of Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (81% never).
28% of Egyptian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified (38% never).
http://www.people-press.org/2011/08/30/muslim-americans-no-signs-of-growth-in-alienation-or-support-for-extremism/
Pew Research (2007): Muslim-Americans who identify more strongly with their religion are three times more likely to feel that suicide bombings are justified
http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
ICM: 5% of Muslims in Britain tell pollsters they would not report a planned Islamic terror attack to authorities.
27% do not support the deportation of Islamic extremists preaching violence and hate.
http://www.scotsman.com/?id=1956912005
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist.html
Federation of Student Islamic Societies: About 1 in 5 Muslim students in Britain (18%) would not report a fellow Muslim planning a terror attack.
http://www.fosis.org.uk/sac/FullReport.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
ICM Poll: 25% of British Muslims disagree that a Muslim has an obligation to report terrorists to police.
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Poll%20Nov%2004/Guardian%20Muslims%20Nov04.asp
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
http://www.populuslimited.com/pdf/2006_02_07_times.pdf
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Pew Research (2013): At least 1 in 4 Muslims do not reject violence against civilians (study did not distinguish between those who believe it is partially justified and never justified).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
Pew Research (2013): 15% of Muslims in Turkey support suicide bombings (also 11% in Kosovo, 26% in Malaysia and 26% in Bangladesh).
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
PCPO (2014): 89% of Palestinians support Hamas and other terrorists firing rockets at Israeli civilians.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/08/poll-89-of-palestinians-support-jihad-terror-attacks-on-israely
Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/
See also: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Terrorism) for further statistics on Islamic terror.
This source quotes multiple polls over a period of time and includes Pew and several news media sources. Some of the information is old, but still indicates an attitude Please read the article and decide for yourself.
Go ahead and fixate.. I'm off to do more important things today like make some fresh coffee..
My apologies to PR126. Didn't see the post on that thread.
All religions are based on lies, delusions, ancient text, superstitious nonsense, insanity, ignorance thinking it is knowledge, magical thinking, bigotry, hatefulness of any belief that is different, misogyny, prejudice, intolerance, authority figures that know no more than the faithful, all of which are believed because of the word of their God, or gods, and justified whether right or wrong, by childish people that have not grown up to be adults that still need a mommy and daddy to tell them how to act, or they go by God's word, or many other gods they believe in. :axe: :wall: :toilet: Solitary
All gods, all religions ever existed are man made without exeption.
Some worse than others.
Quote from: stromboli on October 25, 2014, 11:41:33 AM
My apologies to PR126. Didn't see the post on that thread.
No worries, at least it gets discussed here. It was lost on the other thread.
Quote from: stromboli on October 25, 2014, 11:27:44 AM
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm)
This source quotes multiple polls over a period of time and includes Pew and several news media sources. Some of the information is old, but still indicates an attitude Please read the article and decide for yourself.
But how many innocent civilians were killed by Americans with drones and bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and so on? (Hint: it's in the 5 digits) And most Americans believe this is alright? From the POV of these people, Americans are the radicals. Emphasizing that Islam is a dangerous religion is the wrong strategy. Better to employ our security agencies to focus on the radicals that could act and commit terrorist acts.
Quote from: SGOS on October 25, 2014, 10:01:33 AM
That doesn't automatically put them in the terrorist camp, but it suggests a level of sympathy towards terrorism that raises red flags. When is an honor killing ever justified!? That sounds like pretty radical thinking to me. While there is a level of sympathy there, the questions are how deep does it run and how widespread is it? The numbers don't indicate the depth, putting everyone in a position where they must rely on their own opinion.
And how many states have the death penalty, and that can be easily construed as radical. IOW, is their worst worse than our worst? (It's a mouthful). Unless, someone is actively acting to perpetrate the killing of innocent based on some ideology, then just because they believe in something at odds with our values does not necessarily make them radicals.
It's called collateral damage by the military. It happens in war, but it is still the radical religious, on either side, that causes it to happen. When we invaded Iraq based on a lie that made everyone that was involved say OK, do it! It started the war, but it has nothing to do with the basic Islamic beliefs that justify violence and Sharia law in the name of Allah that was going on for thousands of years. Two wrongs don't make a right. What's the answer? I don't have a clue, do you?
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2014, 12:31:51 PM
is their worst worse than our worst? (It's a mouthful).
Generally, the West believes it to be so, as we bomb their wedding parties, and they think the West is vile, as they stone their women. Yes, it's a mouthful.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2014, 12:22:59 PM
But how many innocent civilians were killed by Americans with drones and bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and so on? (Hint: it's in the 5 digits) And most Americans believe this is alright? From the POV of these people, Americans are the radicals. Emphasizing that Islam is a dangerous religion is the wrong strategy. Better to employ our security agencies to focus on the radicals that could act and commit terrorist acts.
I don't disagree. All religion is evil- and we see from the west while Islam sees from the east. But the concern to me is that the danger is growing in the west. Islam is the fastest growing religion.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/yahya_ahmed/islam_fasting_growing_religion_world.htm
And the strategy of Islam for centuries is to populate a region and when they reach numbers significant enough to have a political impact, have made efforts to implement Sharia Law.
Sharia Law in Britain:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587215/Sharia-Law-enshrined-British-legal-lawyers-guidelines-drawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html
QuoteTop lawyers have written guidelines for British solicitors on drafting 'sharia-compliant' wills which can deny women an equal share of their inheritance and entirely exclude non-believers, it was revealed today.
The Law Society, which represents solicitors in England and Wales, has written a guide on Sharia succession rules that will be used in British courts. It will mean that children born outside of marriage and adopted children could also be denied their fair share.
The guide states: 'No distinction is made between children of different marriages, but illegitimate and adopted children are not Sharia heirs.
France:
QuoteSharia in France: Muslims attack man for eating ham sandwich
Anywhere Islamic law and Western law conflict, it is Western law that must give way.And herein lies the fundamental difference between Islamic law (the sharia), Canon law and Jewish law: Canon law applies to Roman Catholics, Jewish law to Jews, but Islamic law asserts its punitive authority over non-Muslims, and Muslims (even those in Western nations) impose it by force and other means.This defines Islamic supremacism.Stay on top of what’s really happening. Follow me on Twitter here. Like me on Facebook here. Sharia France: Muslims assault man for eating ham sandwich (thanks to Robert Spencer)The principle is very simple: in Muslim countries, one must conform one’s behavior to Islamic sensibilities. And in non-Muslim countries, one must conform one’s behavior to Islamic sensibilities. “Vive Le Vibrancy! In France Muslims Will Assault You For Eating A Ham Sandwich,†Blazing Cat Fur, June 19, 2014:NB â€" Google Translate â€" The case seems absurd, but it is being treated with the utmost seriousness by the police from Reims (Marne). A 23 year old man filed a complaint on June 8, after being attacked, around 21:30 on a tram in the city by two strangers.
You can go to many western countries and pull up similar accounts of efforts by Muslims to enforce their beliefs on the larger population.
The issue of terrorism is not what bothers me so much as the fact that there is tacit acceptance of it amongst a much larger body of Muslims. Somebody is supporting terrorism, to the tune of millions of dollars. ISIS has tanks, they are a legitimate army, and they are continually recruiting new members. Where are they recruiting from? From the ranks of Muslims around the world. ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda- The US State department lists 26 Muslim terrorist organizations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#United_States
Who is funding them? All 26 organizations have money at their disposal to equip themselves and carry out raids and acts of insurgency. My point is that the bigger picture is one of an overall attitude among Muslims that there is justification for these acts for the purpose of imposing Islam on the world at large. And we all have seen all the quotes from the Quran that justify it.
America and NATO has gone to war in Afghanistan over 10 years ago.
There is no purpose in this war or the will to win the war.
What is there to win exactly? What is the goal?
Why carry on wasting men and materiel in something so pointless?
The US Army are social workers in a country that is unwilling and unteachable?
How many armies tried and failed there in the past for whatever reason?
No question we have bought into the total war scenario that justifies the military industrial complex. A former friend of mine is a retired Air Force Master Sergeant that works for Boeing. He has a very nice income. I was offered a job with a civilian contractor when I left the DOD because of the work I did. I turned it down because they were even more odious than the people I was working for.
there is also no question that we have grossly exacerbated the problem with our actions. My oldest son is a medically retired Army First Sergeant with 2 tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. He told me a few times that all we are doing is teaching the terrorists tactics to fight better with. He also said that the people of Iraq are still fighting over grievances centuries old, and are in a continual state of internal as well as external conflict.
Think of the circle the wagons mentality of the xtians, and ramp that up to the level of violent paranoia.
The only visible part of jihad is terrorism. The invisible part is more insidious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If5gXh7uVIo
I'll be honest- I put this on here because it is controversial just to stir the fucking pot. Little troublemaker me. :biggrin:
Quote from: stromboli on October 25, 2014, 01:27:09 PM
I'll be honest- I put this on here because it is controversial just to stir the fucking pot. Little troublemaker me. :biggrin:
It is controversial on AF.
Quote from: stromboli on October 25, 2014, 01:02:46 PM
And the strategy of Islam for centuries is to populate a region and when they
reach numbers significant enough to have a political impact, have made efforts
to implement Sharia Law.
Sharia Law in Britain:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587215/Sharia-Law-enshrined-British-legal-lawyers-guidelines-drawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2587215/Sharia-Law-enshrined-British-legal-lawyers-guidelines-drawing-documents-according-Islamic-rules.html)
France:
You can go to many western countries and pull up similar accounts of efforts
by Muslims to enforce their beliefs on the larger population.
You can't compare Europe with the US. One big difference is that in Europe the Left is very strong, and it alternates with the Right in governance. When the Left parties get into power, they've often sympathised with the Muslims as they see them part of the marginalized, downtrodden minority that needs help from the government. The backlash is that Muslims have exploited this to their advantage. In the US, the parties are extreme right (Republicans) and center ( Democrats). The chances that Muslims in America getting their sharia accepted are very remote.
Quote from: Solitary on October 25, 2014, 12:38:39 PM
It's called collateral damage by the military. It happens in war, but it is still the radical religious, on either side, that causes it to happen. When we invaded Iraq based on a lie that made everyone that was involved say OK, do it! It started the war, but it has nothing to do with the basic Islamic beliefs that justify violence and Sharia law in the name of Allah that was going on for thousands of years. Two wrongs don't make right. What's the answer? I don't have a clue, do you?
To me, it means that at home, we need to focus on stamping out radicalization. Abroad, it means we only intervene if and only if our national interests are at stakes. Otherwise, we leave them alone. When we did that with communism, Vietnam is a good example that when we left that country, the system eventually collapsed, not only there but just about everywhere communism ruled. Now, to get to the point of interfering less and less in those countries means to develop different sources of energy so that we don't depend on their oil as a humomgus part of their wealth is from the selling of oil. Cut off their revenue and it will go a long way in reducing the clout of these countries in supporting the different terrorist organisation across the globe.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on October 25, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
The definition of a radical Muslim in that video is based on belief in "sharia law", or "honor killing", or "the killing of civilians is sometimes justified" or "any sympathy for bin Laden", and this leads to over 600+ million radical Muslims. I'n not sure I can buy that. I'm pretty sure if you would poll Americans on similar questions, you would arrive at a very high number of Americans being radical. To me, you have to look of how many would actually act on their "impulse" to kill innocent lives based on ideology. I'm not sure all of those 600+ million Muslims, who expressed an opinion that we consider radical, they would necessarily act on that "impulse". It's true in the past, a good number of Muslims were silence after a terrorist attack. But this is no longer true. Many groups of Muslims are now expressing their outrage, and many individual Muslims are cooperating with the authorities to unmask these terrorists. And we should encourage more to come forward.
I would also consider those that fund, no matter how small the amount, radically motivated individuals to be radical as well. This might be a more difficult number to accurately measure, but it adds to, rather than subtracts from, that total number of radicals. Radical in thoughts and not deeds are still scary as they have the ability to transform and convince others to do things they would not do themselves. Over time though, our thoughts can become our actions, so, how many ticking time-bombs do we really have? And do people trust pollsters enough to be entirely forthcoming? Idk, just asking.
Please notice that I didn't specify any particular radical group - most certainly there are radicals in the US. And they have control of way too much of everything.
Quote from: hrdlr110 on October 26, 2014, 12:33:17 AM
Please notice that I didn't specify any particular radical group - most certainly there are radicals in the US. And they have control of way too much of everything.
A disclaimer?
I suppose, but not out of fear, but rather, a realization that there are indeed radicals in the US.
Quote
In truth, even a tiny minority of "1%" of Muslims worldwide translates to 15 million believers - which is hardly an insignificant number.
One percent of the population is still one percent of the population. Yes, 15 million is something to be concerned about, but it's still a minority.
Quote
However, the "minority" of Muslims who approve of terrorists, their goals, or their means of achieving them is much greater than this. In fact, it isn't even a true minority in some cases, depending on how goals and targets are defined.
In reading your list of figures, I see that none of them address the actual relevant point towards whether or not these people would take up arms and do violence against other people. The worst it gets is with
supporting such acts. Now, that's not admirable, I admit, but it's
also not the same thing as actually being willing to take up arms and do the act themselves, no matter what sort of statistics you practice. Instead it's this nebulous "support" term that can mean different things to different people, from rah-rah to material support.
Vague terms invite vague statistics. They're useless, except in one way â€" to point out what we already know, that the Muslim world does not hold the Western world in high esteem. Given the behavior of America and Israel as of late, I'm not at all surprised at this. If
I don't think much of American or Israeli actions in the Middle East, I can hardly fault Muslims for feeling the same way.
Yes, Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the holy land treat us as if we are monsters only fit to kill. On the other hand, we have gone a long way to legitimate that kind of treatment by treating Muslims the world over as if they were less than human. I don't mean pissant stuff like denying them Sharia; I mean shit like Guantanimo.
I'm reminded of Epictetus the Stoic advised: If it is concerned with what is not in your power, be ready with the answer that it is nothing to you. I can't change the way Muslims view us, but I can change the way my government treats them.
Quote
Top lawyers have written guidelines for British solicitors on drafting 'sharia-compliant' wills which can deny women an equal share of their inheritance and entirely exclude non-believers, it was revealed today.
*PFFT!* :lol: You do know that in general in Western-style probate, you can distribute your wealth as you see fit in your will, right? Sorry, but there is no creeping in of Sharia law here.
Quote from: hrdlr110 on October 26, 2014, 12:17:47 AM
I would also consider those that fund, no matter how small the amount, radically motivated individuals to be radical as well. This might be a more difficult number to accurately measure, but it adds to, rather than subtracts from, that total number of radicals. Radical in thoughts and not deeds are still scary as they have the ability to transform and convince others to do things they would not do themselves. Over time though, our thoughts can become our actions, so, how many ticking time-bombs do we really have? And do people trust pollsters enough to be entirely forthcoming? Idk, just asking.
Just by looking at the cabal of shootings in the US, taking place just about every 2 or 3 days, by crazy loonies, it's easy to see that any democratic country can be a pool for recruiting radicals.
I'm kinda split on this video, I know that supporting sharia law doesn't necessarily make you an extremist, but on the other hand the people that are supporting the extremist in a way are just as bad because they build their moral.
It would help if one knew what sharia law (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Law) is.
Quote from: pr126 on October 27, 2014, 05:02:00 AM
It would help if one knew what sharia law (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Law) is.
Doesn't sound much different to Christianity to me. A group of laws written hundreds of years ago by barbaric sand people that is still practiced today, but that which is completely opposed to the standards of human rights today.
The difference is Christianity had to change and rewrite its own scriptures, and that unlike sharia law, the laws of western countries tries don't take bible stories as anything but standards for human rights.
As I've said before, if they want to practice their sand god worshipping barbaric rituals, do so in your own country, but keep the fuck out of my developed and progressive land.
Quote from: pr126 on October 27, 2014, 07:41:21 AM
You will have to keep them away by lethal force. Are you prepared to fight for your freedom?
I'm prepared to not give a shit about including religious practices in human rights, but they they choose to find common sense I'll gladly share a coffee with an ex-muslim.
I meant to fight those who want to impose sharia by force.
But watch out for stealth, subversion, and liers. There are many.
Some of the already in high office. In the WH, Homeland Security, Congress.
Well we're all gonna die anyway so there's no sense to arguing about it... Right? People are denied rights constantly here in South Carolina even without sharia laws.. Oh wait! It's those peaceful Christians doing it.. Carry on..
Quote from: pr126 on October 27, 2014, 08:19:44 AM
I meant to fight those who want to impose sharia by force.
But watch out for stealth, subversion, and liers. There are many.
Some of the already in high office. In the WH, Homeland Security, Congress.
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e242/Jacava/reimu_facepalm.png) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/Jacava/media/reimu_facepalm.png.html)
Seriously? You're playing the 'Politician X is a secret Muslim' card?
You need to go back to your cage.
This, from the previously cited link:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_(Terrorism
QuoteThe 400 terrorists on whom I’ve collected data were the ones who actually targeted the “far enemy,†the U.S., as opposed to their own governments. I wanted to limit myself for analytical purity to that group, to see if I could identify anything different from other terrorist movements, which were far more nationalistic.
Most people think that terrorism comes from poverty, broken families, ignorance, immaturity, lack of family or occupational responsibilities, weak minds susceptible to brainwashing - the sociopath, the criminals, the religious fanatic, or, in this country, some believe they’re just plain evil.
Taking these perceived root causes in turn, three quarters of my sample came from the upper or middle class. The vast majorityâ€"90 percentâ€"came from caring, intact families. Sixty-three percent had gone to college, as compared with the 5-6 percent that’s usual for the third world. These are the best and brightest of their societies in many ways.
Al Qaeda’s members are not the Palestinian fourteen-year- olds we see on the news, but join the jihad at the average age of 26. Three-quarters were professionals or semi- professionals. They are engineers, architects, and civil engineers, mostly scientists. Very few humanities are represented, and quite surprisingly very few had any background in religion. The natural sciences predominate. Bin Laden himself is a civil engineer, Zawahiri is a physician, Mohammed Atta was, of course, an architect; and a few members are military, such as Mohammed Ibrahim Makawi, who is supposedly the head of the military committee.
Far from having no family or job responsibilities, 73 percent were married and the vast majority had children. Those who were not married were usually too young to be married. Only 13 percent were madrassa-trained and most of them come from what I call the Southeast Asian sample, the Jemaah Islamiyya (JI). They had gone to schools headed by Sungkar and Bashir. Sungkar was the head of JI; he died in 1999. His successor, Bashir, is the cleric who is being tried for the Jakarta Marriott bombing of August 2003; he is also suspected of planning the October 2002 Bali bombing.
As a psychiatrist, originally I was looking for any characteristic common to these men. But only four of the 400 men had any hint of a disorder. This is below the worldwide base rate for thought disorders. So they are as healthy as the general population. I didn’t find many personality disorders, which makes sense in that people who are antisocial usually don’t cooperate well enough with others to join groups. This is a well-organized type of terrorism these men are not like Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, loners off planning in the woods. Loners are weeded out early on. Of the nineteen 9-11 terrorists, none had a criminal record. You could almost say that those least likely to cause harm individually are most likely to do so collectively.
At the time they joined jihad, the terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad. Seventy percent of my sample joined the jihad while they were living in another country from where they grew up.[1]
Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the Boston Marathon bomber, was attending community college. He was living in the U.S., not a "disaffected youth" in Pakistan.
From the Rand Corporation report on counterterrorism:
QuoteTerrorists are not particularly impoverished, uneducated, or afflicted by mental disease. Demographically, their most important characteristic is normalcy (within their environment). Terrorist leaders actually tend to come from relatively privileged backgrounds. These conclusions are firmly supported by empirical analysis
Osama Bin Laden was an educated man whose family are wealthy and connected Saudi Arabians. There is evidence that much of his funding came from Saudi Arabian sources. Saudi Arabia is a hard line Islamic regime and theoretically an ally of the U.S..
The point is that, as stated by the Rand report that
Normal is the description of the source material or population for terrorists. They are not growing out of poverty and disaffection, but from middle and upper middle class families that have achieved success.
If Tamerian Tsarnaev, a man who had a family and who had the means to live a good life in the U.S. can become a bomber capable of killing innocents just to prove some political/religious point, can we really base trust on a religion that claims to be the religion of peace?
And as the article stated, 70% of the people who joined were in countries other than the one they grew up in, which makes Tsarnaev "typical". Question: based on that, how many potential members of Islam that have come to this country are potential Tsarnaevs? Obviously it is impossible to know. Call me islamophobic all you want, But I think to ignore the potential is not smart.
Where does ISIS recruit from?
http://www.bustle.com/articles/40535-how-does-isis-recruit-exactly-its-techniques-are-ruthless-terrifying-and-efficient
I won't quote the article, you can read it. ISIS is very media savvy and it knows the audience it draws recruits from.
They have gained 6,000 new members since airstrikes began.
My son, three tour veteran of the Middle East, said that all we did was teach them how to fight us. They learned.
This:
http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-is-recruiting-westerners-countries-2014-8
QuoteInnes Bowen, author of "Inside British Islam," told Business Insider there was no single type of person who becomes a radical in the U.K., and no single pathway to their ideology.
"There must be a range of motivations â€" a sense of adventure, a misplaced sense of duty or idealism â€" some of those recruited are well versed in ideology and the politics of their radical cause others are surprisingly ignorant," Bowen said.
Can you say "rank and file?" Poo poo all you want, call me an Islamophobe, but I think I'm justified in saying that all of Islam has the potential for being dangerous and that a significant minority, if not a majority, of Islam is at least sympathetic to the terrorists.
Hakurei Reimu wrote:QuoteSeriously? You're playing the 'Politician X is a secret Muslim' card?
You need to go back to your cage.
Surprise!
ISLAMIST INFILTRATION OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=844)
QuoteAbedin, Huma: Deputy Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton
* Abunimah, Ali: Vice president of the Arab American Action Network
* Al-Hibri, Azizah: U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom
* Al-Mansour, Khalid Abdullah Tariq: Patron of Obama during 1980s
* Al-Marayati, Salam: Representative of the U.S. government at the annual Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe conference
* Alikhan, Areef: Department of Homeland Security
* Arab American Action Network: Received money from Woods Fund when Obama was board member of Woods Fund
* Barack H. Obama Foundation: Headed by President Obama's half-brother, who oversees the Muslim Brotherhood's international investments
* Asbahi, Mazen: National Coordinator for Muslim American Affairs (during 2008 presidential campaign)
* Elibiary, Mohamed: Homeland Security Advisory Council
* Husaini, Minha: National Coordinator for Muslim American Affairs (during 2008 presidential campaign)
* Hussain, Rashad: Special Envoy to the Organization of the Islamic Conference
* Khalidi, Rashid: Professor of Middle East Studies at Columbia University
* Magid, Mohamed: Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) Countering Violent Extremism Working Group
* Mattson, Ingrid: Invited by Obama advisor to work on the White House Council on Women and Girls
* Mogahed, Dalia: Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships
* Obama, Abon'go Malik: the older half-brother of Barack Obama
* Patel, Eboo: Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships
* Said, Edward: Professor and Arab activist who was keynote speaker at 1998 fundraiser attended by Obama
* Shora, Kareem: Homeland Security Advisory Council
* Shora, Nawar: Senior Advisor to the Civil Rights and Liberties Office of the Transportation Security Administration
Muslim Brotherhood organisations in America (http://www.brotherhoodunmasked.net/organizations-connected-to-the-muslim-brotherhood/the-muslim-brotherhood)
QuoteIn 2004, federal investigators discovered a Muslim Brotherhood memorandum during a search of a northern Virginia home. The memorandum, written by Mohamed Akram for the Muslim Brotherhood’s Shura Council, described a “civilization jihad†aimed at North America. It stated: “The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.†This explanatory memorandum also included a list of 29 Muslim Brotherhood connected organizations in the U.S. The memorandum was entered into evidence at the Holy Land Foundation terrorism financing trial in 2007-2008.
Dismiss the "sources" all you want. Truth is still the truth, even if you don't want to believe it.
Here is something else to downplay, whitewash, or simply ignore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-QX8LuKHA
Quote from: stromboli
Can you say "rank and file?" Poo poo all you want, call me an Islamophobe, but I think I'm justified in saying that all of Islam has the potential for being dangerous and that a significant minority, if not a majority, of Islam is at least sympathetic to the terrorists.
Great post.
As Sam Harris once put it, how many Christian Palestinians are suicide bombers? Now compare that to the number of Muslim Palestinian suicide bombers. Most Muslims are no different than the Christians in the Bible belt. They support their crazies, or at least sympathize with some of their actions and ideologies. At least in the West, Christianity is somehow kept on a leash, possibly via mockery (freedom of expression), which is virtually non-existent in most of these areas for some reason. As Bill Maher says, they still whack you for being an apostate, and a significant minority (possibly majority of Muslims in some of these countries) are ok with that. You just have to look at how conservatively they vote. Hamas in Palestine and not too long ago, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt are/were in power. Some may argue that 50% of Americans vote conservative as well, but here they're kept in check, by a combination of comedians, laws, world opinion (NPR, BBC, etc.) and some Liberal politicians.
Quote[Christians] they're kept in check, by a combination of comedians, laws, world opinion (NPR, BBC, etc.) and some Liberal politicians.
Really? That's all it needed? Why doesn't this work with Muslims?
Why we don't see Christians rampaging all over the planet raping, looting, beheading, enslaving, mass murdering non Christians?
If all religions are the same, then every religion would behave like Islam does. But they don't.
So all religions are NOT equal. It doesn't need a genious to work that one out.
PR, this is a free country. Legitimate citizens can participate in our government even if they're of a religion you don't like.
U.S. military ordered to hide identities, change routines to avoid terrorist attacks (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/29/pentagon-issues-islamic-state-warning-to-staff-rem/)
QuoteThe agency in charge of protecting the Pentagon has sent out a warning that “ISIL-linked terrorists†want to attack employees and is urging them to change routines and mask their identities.
The Pentagon Force Protection Agency, citing intelligence reports, says members of the Islamic State terrorist group, also known by the acronym ISIL, may use knives, guns or explosives.
“Recent threats, revealed through various intelligence and law enforcement sources, indicate that terrorists, directed or inspired by the Islamic States of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), view members of U.S. military members and law enforcement officers as legitimate targets for attacks,†the agency warns in memo that The Washington Times has obtained.
I find this report rather odd. There are maybe only 6 or 8 "radical" Muslims in America, if that.
Why the warning to the military?
For "radical" read devout, practicing his religion according to the scriptures and emulating the perfect man Al-InsÄn al-KÄmil, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ins%C4%81n_al-K%C4%81mil) aka Muhammad.
Nothing wrong or radical, terrorist, extremist, militant, [enter your favorite label here] about practicing freely one's religion.
Well, unless they are Christians. That really is beyond the pale.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on October 30, 2014, 09:19:14 PM
PR, this is a free country. Legitimate citizens can participate in our government even if they're of a religion you don't like.
Islam with divinely mandated slaughter, rape, plunder, misogyny, child molestation, bigotry, racism, built in megalomania, whats not to like?
I know it is uncomfortable to acknowledge but Islam is at war with the rest of the world since 622 CE.
It's called jihad or holy war. It is in full swing everywhere.
Surely someone must have noticed by now?
Foreign Fighters Pouring Into Syria Faster Than Ever (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/foreign-fighters-pouring-syria-faster-ever-say-officials-n236546)
QuoteTop U.S. and British counterterrorism officials said Tuesday that the growing number and variety of foreign fighters streaming into Syria is unprecedented in recent history.
“The rate of travel into Syria [by foreign fighters] is greater than we saw into Afghanistan prior to 9/11,†Randy Blake, a senior strategic advisor in the U.S. Office of Director of National Intelligence, said Tuesday during a panel at the annual International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) conference in Orlando, Florida. “It’s greater than anything we’ve seen into Afghanistan, into Yemen, into Somalia, into Iraq, or anything that we’ve seen in the last 10-year period.â€
Blake said the number of Westerners heading to Syria to fight has risen so rapidly in recent weeks that a new law enforcement video shown at the four-day event is already out of date.
“The video said there are somewhere around 12,000 foreign fighters in Syria. We would update that number to about 16,000 foreign fighters who have traveled to Syria from over 80 countries,†Blake said, adding that roughly 2,000 of those fighters hail from Western countries -- including "at least 500 from the U.K, 700 from France, 400 from Germany, and more than 100 Americans [who] have traveled, or tried to travel into Syria.â€
What’s more, authorities have found it nearly impossible to create a demographic profile of these Western volunteers.
It must be socio-economics. Certainly nothing to do with Islam.
"ISIS is not Islamic". (http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/10/isis_emisem_islam.html) -
Barack Obama.
@pr126,
We can't consider all 1.2 billion Muslims as radicals. What would you do? Kill all of them?!? The West has to worry with only those Muslims who are eager and willing to carry terrorist attacks. Those Muslims who have chosen not to engage with violent activities for whatever reasons, we must let them live their own lives. Does that put a lot of burden on our shoulders? Of course it does. That's going to test our resilience and our effectiveness. On a military level, we must be ever ready to fight back. But you have to consider that there are many Muslims who are now talking back to those who are violent, and many Muslims have been and still are cooperating with Western authorities at great peril to their lives. At another level, we can only win if we stick to our values - which is life, liberty and freedom. This lets those Muslims who are sitting on the fence to compare. In the long term, I believe that our values will prevail.
josephpalazzo wrote:[/]
QuoteWe can't consider all 1.2 billion Muslims as radicals.
Certainly not. I have never stated that.
QuoteAt another level, we can only win if we stick to our values - which is life, liberty and freedom.
That is being eroded, see here: MESA and IIIT: Islamists Infiltrating Academia (http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/10/mesa_and_iiit_islamists_infiltrating_academia.html)
Islamist "donate" millions to universities, with strings attached.
QuoteOn a military level, we must be ever ready to fight back.
Really? Like this? (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/29/pentagon-issues-islamic-state-warning-to-staff-rem/)
And there is Afghanistan. 11 years, nothing to show for it.
The US Marine became a social worker for ungrateful Muslims who do not want them .
Iraq is worse than ever. Then there is Syria, Libya, Egypt to mention a few.
Foreign policy is in shambled in the Middle East.
Not looking good.
Nonetheless, I like your optimism.
Looks like the Americans put all their hopes into the "moderate Muslims".
What else do you have? Just in case the 1.2 billion moderate Muslims don't want to fight their brethren and die for the kuffar. Could happen.
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2014, 12:13:38 PM
josephpalazzo wrote:[/]Certainly not. I have never stated that.That is being eroded, see here: MESA and IIIT: Islamists Infiltrating Academia (http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/10/mesa_and_iiit_islamists_infiltrating_academia.html)
Islamist "donate" millions to universities, with strings attached. Really? Like this? (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/29/pentagon-issues-islamic-state-warning-to-staff-rem/)
And there is Afghanistan. 11 years, nothing to show for it.
The US Marine became a social worker for ungrateful Muslims who do not want them .
Iraq is worse than ever. Then there is Syria, Libya, Egypt to mention a few.
Foreign policy is in shambled in the Middle East.
Not looking good.
Nonetheless, I like your optimism.
Looks like the Americans put all their hopes into the "moderate Muslims".
What else do you have? Just in case the 1.2 billion moderate Muslims don't want to fight their brethren and die for the kuffar. Could happen.
I'm not defending US policies of the past as they have been disastrous. As I said in another thread, we have to be strong military but we need to develop other sources of energy so that we no longer need the oil from the ME. Cut their revenue, and it will go along way to stem out the terrorist organisations that are being supported by the different Islamic countries.
I am not sure that other sources of energy will help. If the US don't buy the oil, someone else will.
Besides, if the US wanted other sources of energy, they could have done it years ago.
I don't think that is a priority at the moment.
It seems that everybody studiously avoids to acknowledge the reason for the present predicament , which is the ideology, Islam.
.
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2014, 01:47:40 PM
I am not sure that other sources of energy will help. If the US don't buy the oil, someone else will.
Besides, if the US wanted other sources of energy, they could have done it years ago.
I don't think that is a priority at the moment.
It seems that everybody studiously avoids to acknowledge the reason for the present predicament , which is the ideology, Islam.
.
If we develop new technology, these will spread across the globe. Yes, we have done little on that front, mainly because the oil companies have hamstrung research. In the US, there are conducting a full fledged war on climate change. Oil has made these companies and the Islamic countries strange bedfellows, but the reality is that as long as countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and others pull in billions of US dollars every day, the terrorists will get funded - this is all linked together. And the longer we do nothing or very little, the longer the world will see Islamic terrorism on the front page.
Ideology is annoying without funding, deadly with funds. Look at ISIS. It has huge oil reserve under their control, which they manage to sell on the black market. As the old saying goes: follow the money.
Going off to a tangent for a moment about the global warming, isn't it odd that we are prepared to use oil (fossil fuel) until the last drop? It doesn' add up.
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
Going off to a tangent for a moment about the global warming, isn't it odd that we are prepared to use oil (fossil fuel) until the last drop? It doesn' add up.
It's basic economics. At current price, at the pump in the US, it translates to approximately one â,¬ per liter. It's cheaper than a liter of water. As long as prices are that low, there is little incentive to develop other sources of energy.
Quote from: pr126 on October 31, 2014, 01:18:56 AM
Islam with divinely mandated slaughter, rape, plunder, misogyny, child molestation, bigotry, racism, built in megalomania, whats not to like?
I know it is uncomfortable to acknowledge but Islam is at war with the rest of the world since 622 CE.
It's called jihad or holy war. It is in full swing everywhere.
Surely someone must have noticed by now?
Look, dum-dum, The US was once at war with Japan â€"I mean an actual, proper
declared warâ€" and we put a lot of Japanese-Americans into internment camps because we
feared that they would put the loyalty to the country of their ancestors over the loyalty to the country that they lived in. This was a mistake and a betrayal to
everything that we stand for.
The rights and privileges of the US are available to
all of its citizens, not all of its citizens
except Muslims.
Now go fuck yourself.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on October 31, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Look, dum-dum, The US was once at war with Japan â€"I mean an actual, proper declared warâ€" and we put a lot of Japanese-Americans into internment camps because we feared that they would put the loyalty to the country of their ancestors over the loyalty to the country that they lived in. This was a mistake and a betrayal to everything that we stand for.
The rights and privileges of the US are available to all of its citizens, not all of its citizens except Muslims.
Now go fuck yourself.
How does your post relate to the thread?
Did anyone here suggest to intern Muslims into camps? Or restrict their freedoms in any way?
I don't think so. Looks like a strawman.
Using abusive language make you feel morally superior?
It only shows immaturity.
While you so fervently championing for the freedom of Muslims in America, perhaps you can find some time to find out how Muslims treat minorities in Muslim ruled countries.
The copts in Egypt, or Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist blacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Turkey. Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and everywhere Muslims rule.
But that means nothing to you. It happens far away in another universe.
If you think you have the moral high ground, you don't, probably never will.
Furthermore, if and when they come to power in any infidel country, it could be even yours, the treatment for non Muslims will be the same,
"freedom go to hell".
That is Islam, the ideology, since 622 CE.
Ignorance is not always bliss.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on October 31, 2014, 07:44:57 PM
Now go fuck yourself.
*mod mode* Hakurei, there was no need to insult him like that. Keep it civil, please.
Although we live in more civilized times now then we did 60-70 years ago, as is obvious in the progression of time, there is something to be side on just how far can certain western countries like the UK or America can support people coming from less developed countries.
Its one thing to have people come here because their countries shit and doesn't even have health care let alone human rights, but its another thing when they come to western countries and bring their religious bullshit and violence with them.
And kind of like trying to remove cancer from healthy cells, is very hard to do and zero in on the people who just want to be free of tyranny, to those who want to bring there violent mentality here.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a national incident were to happen related to islamic extremists, causing countries like the US and UK to start coming down on all migrants, good or bad.
Quote from: Munch on November 01, 2014, 10:20:12 AM
Although we live in more civilized times now then we did 60-70 years ago, as is obvious in the progression of time, there is something to be side on just how far can certain western countries like the UK or America can support people coming from less developed countries.
Its one thing to have people come here because their countries shit and doesn't even have health care let alone human rights, but its another thing when they come to western countries and bring their religious bullshit and violence with them.
And kind of like trying to remove cancer from healthy cells, is very hard to do and zero in on the people who just want to be free of tyranny, to those who want to bring there violent mentality here.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a national incident were to happen related to islamic extremists, causing countries like the US and UK to start coming down on all migrants, good or bad.
There is an answer to those Muslims living in Western countries, who use their "right to demonstrate" to advertise their discontent with not having sharia law, or whatever gripes they have against the West, and that is to tell them if they were demonstrating in Saudi Arabia, they would more likely be imprisoned and tortured as the "right to demonstrate" in those Islamic countries doesn't exist. Also, if they are unhappy being in a Western country, they are free to immigrate to those Islamic countries. It's up to the population, along with the media, to show them and letting them know that their thinking is quite narrow, and they are unaware of what they are asking.
Modern Day Trojan Horse: Al-Hijra, the Islamic Doctrine of Immigration, Accepting Freedom or Imposing Islam? (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Day-Trojan-Horse-Immigration/dp/0979492955/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1414863582&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=hijra+the+islamic+trojan+horse)
QuoteThe first fundamental principle for the creation of a successfully visible Islamic society is to be separate and distinct... "Sam Solomon and E Al Maqdisi have provided the general Western public a valuable service in publishing this book." Rev Dr Patrick Sookhdeo Director of the Institute for the Study of Islam and Christianity "If only one piece of information pertaining to Muslims and Islam is ever read, it would be this book on Al-Hijra." N Keas Phd Lecturer and Communication Consultant "I hope that every person in the Western world reads it, including the sleeping political elite. This book should bring about a much needed awakening." Geert Wilders MP Chairman Party for Freedom (PVV) Sam Solomon, a convert to Christianity and an expert on Islam, is a senior lecturer and research coordinator, a human rights activist and an advisor to British as well as European parliamentarians. Sam has authored a number of thought-provoking books and numerous articles on Christian Muslim relations. E Al Maqdisi is a prolific writer and debater, an author of some 15 books, and a regular contributor to many Internet sites on this complex subject of Islam and its teachings.
Muslims immigrate to the west by the millions, not to escape Islam, but to bring it with them.
Quote from: pr126 on November 01, 2014, 01:46:32 PM
Modern Day Trojan Horse: Al-Hijra, the Islamic Doctrine of Immigration, Accepting Freedom or Imposing Islam? (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Day-Trojan-Horse-Immigration/dp/0979492955/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1414863582&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=hijra+the+islamic+trojan+horse)
Muslims immigrate to the west by the millions, not to escape Islam, but to bring it with them.
Many Muslims do, and that's why we must be vigilant in making sure these do not win the day. We live in a democracy, and in a democracy, there is always a struggle as people voices their different points of view. You just cannot live in a democracy, clap your hands and go on a permanent vacation. A democracy requires that its citizens keep abreast on information and play an active and sustaining role. Go on a permanent vacation, and the barbarians at the door will have free hands to take over. You can then kiss goodbye to your democracy.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 01, 2014, 04:36:22 PM
Many Muslims do, and that's why we must be vigilant in making sure these do not win the day. We live in a democracy, and in a democracy, there is always a struggle as people voices their different points of view. You just cannot live in a democracy, clap your hands and go on a permanent vacation. A democracy requires that its citizens keep abreast on information and play an active and sustaining role. Go on a permanent vacation, and the barbarians at the door will have free hands to take over. You can then kiss goodbye to your democracy.
It's kind of like what happened after we deposed Saddam and turned the government over to the people. They then democratically voted not to have a democracy. I get that, you can't push it on anyone. And it's more than just a cooperative effort. Most importantly, it must be a desired state by a large majority, and it's about as fragile as a system can be.
Another problem in the ME is that not only are they divided along religious lines - Sunnis and Shiites- but also along tribal lines, making a near impossibility for democracy to take roots. In the West, you would have to go more than a 1000 years to see tribal factions killing themselves to grab power.
Quote from: pr126 on November 01, 2014, 01:00:58 AM
While you so fervently championing for the freedom of Muslims in America, perhaps you can find some time to find out how Muslims treat minorities in Muslim ruled countries.
The copts in Egypt, or Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist blacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Turkey. Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and everywhere Muslims rule.
But that means nothing to you. It happens far away in another universe.
I've asked this before, and you've never answered with any coherent plan: What would you do about this?
What, you don't have an answer for me? Then how is what I'm doing any better than what you're doing?
Hakurei ReimuQuoteI've asked this before, and you've never answered with any coherent plan: What would you do about this?
What, you don't have an answer for me? Then how is what I'm doing any better than what you're doing?
1 stop uncontrolled immigration from Muslim countries.
2 Treat Muslims equally. (not preferentially.)
3. Stop pandering, lying, whitewashing, down playing, ignoring the Islam menace.
Other than that,
I don't have a plan, I don't need a plan, I am not Obama, Cameron, or anyone that people listen to.
You don't have a plan either.
You are quite happy the way things are as it is. You cannot find anything wrong with it. Can you?
Sharia law or gay marriage critics would be branded ‘extremists’ under Tory plans, atheists and Christians warn (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11202290/Sharia-law-or-gay-marriage-critics-would-be-branded-extremists-under-Tory-plans-atheists-and-Christians-warn.html)
QuoteAnyone who criticises Sharia law or gay marriage could be branded an “extremist†under sweeping new powers planned by the Conservatives to combat terrorism, an alliance of leading atheists and Christians fear.
Theresa May, the Home Secretary, unveiled plans last month for so-called Extremism Disruption Orders, which would allow judges to ban people deemed extremists from broadcasting, protesting in certain places or even posting messages on Facebook or Twitter without permission.
The freedom of non Muslims are constantly eroded to accommodate sharia law.
Do you know what sharia laws (http://www.christianconcern.com/sites/default/files/docs/Final_Sharia_Law_and_English_Law_Table.pdf) are? Do you care?
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 01:16:37 AM
Hakurei Reimu1 stop uncontrolled immigration from Muslim countries.
Every country already controls immigration. Oh, you mean the UK's immigration. What the hell can
I, an American, do about
that?Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 01:16:37 AM
2 Treat Muslims equally. (not preferentially.)
I do this already. Muslims have the right to rant and rave as much as they want. I have the right and responsibility to tell them to go fuck themselves.
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 01:16:37 AM
3. Stop pandering, lying, whitewashing, down playing, ignoring the Islam menace.
Yes, and stop pandering, lying, whitwashing, downplaying, or ignoring our own role in this whole mess by trying to dictate to that region how it should run their affairs. Nobody likes this.
And as to the "menace," I think you exaggerate the menace to the western world. The WTC attack merely killed as many people in the US as die in car crashes in a month. The US paid the Muslim world back handsomely for that slight, but in doing so damaged our own reputation and financial security. It's a losing proposition either way, and in many situations, the only winning move is not to play.
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 01:16:37 AM
You don't have a plan either.
Well, golly, thank you for noticing that, genius. You know, after I all but told you I don't have a plan other than to uphold the ideals of my country.
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 01:16:37 AM
You are quite happy the way things are as it is. You cannot find anything wrong with it. Can you?
Who's strawmanning now? I'm not happy about the situation, but I can't do anything about it, either. It is beyond my power to change, and I'm not going to worry about what I cannot change. I'll make noise, but I'm not going to twist myself into knots over what I cannot change.
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 01:16:37 AM
Sharia law or gay marriage critics would be branded ‘extremists’ under Tory plans, atheists and Christians warn (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11202290/Sharia-law-or-gay-marriage-critics-would-be-branded-extremists-under-Tory-plans-atheists-and-Christians-warn.html)
The freedom of non Muslims are constantly eroded to accommodate sharia law.
Do you know what sharia laws (http://www.christianconcern.com/sites/default/files/docs/Final_Sharia_Law_and_English_Law_Table.pdf) are? Do you care?
That's in the UK. Like it or not, that's on you and
you don't need me to remind you. We all know that Sharia is terrible, and I have
never once said that you shouldn't stop Muslims from undermining your laws.
What I believe is that Muslims have the right to rant and rave on how much they want Sharia as much as they want. In turn, it is your right and responsibility to loudly remind them that they are not the dictators of law in the UK. Any law that hobbles this is to the detriment of the Western World.
Hakurei Reimu wrote:QuoteThe WTC attack merely killed as many people in the US as die in car crashes in a month.
I am not sure that the families of the victims would be happy with your analogy.
But, it was an act of god. Here:
Sura 8:17 Pickthal
Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Quote from: pr126 on October 30, 2014, 03:15:28 PM
Really? That's all it needed? Why doesn't this work with Muslims?
Why we don't see Christians rampaging all over the planet raping, looting, beheading, enslaving, mass murdering non Christians?
If all religions are the same, then every religion would behave like Islam does. But they don't.
So all religions are NOT equal. It doesn't need a genious to work that one out.
I didn't say that they're equal in every sense. Only in the way that they both have too many conservatives supporting their crazy ideals or crazies. I didn't make any comments as to which ideals (as they're being taught in both camps) are better or worse. Try again.
But it is Just a Small Minority of Extremists (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/But_it_is_Just_a_Small_Minority_of_Extremists)
What Can We Do About It? (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/What_Can_We_Do_About_It%3F)
Please note that this man is a Jordanian-Palestinian politician. Jordan has recognized Israel as a state and is considered a moderate Islam country. This does not put Jordan in the camp of ISIS, but obviously there are people who are willing to promote it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1koyPZ8nlrY
AND this exchange, between an American moderate and a British radical cleric.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tbmnX8pZmc
I NEVER SAID THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS. But it should be apparent that Islam and ISIS can draw from the rank and file of Islam to fuel terrorism and even a totalitarian state, which is ISIS' goal. And I maintain it is not a few "bad apples in the barrel" but a significant number, even if they are a minority.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 01, 2014, 01:08:52 PM
There is an answer to those Muslims living in Western countries, who use their "right to demonstrate" to advertise their discontent with not having sharia law, or whatever gripes they have against the West, and that is to tell them if they were demonstrating in Saudi Arabia, they would more likely be imprisoned and tortured as the "right to demonstrate" in those Islamic countries doesn't exist. Also, if they are unhappy being in a Western country, they are free to immigrate to those Islamic countries. It's up to the population, along with the media, to show them and letting them know that their thinking is quite narrow, and they are unaware of what they are asking.
If they want to use their freedom as Westerners, they should 'go home', even if they've lived here for generations, eh? I am so tired of the 'if you have a problem with something here, leave' non-argument.
If Obama, Cameron et al would correctly state on the TV that ISIS is acting according to the Quran and sunna, and it is Islam in it's purest form, and they have been doing so since 622 CE, what would be the next logical conclusion?
Quote from: Mister Agenda on November 03, 2014, 09:46:04 AM
If they want to use their freedom as Westerners, they should 'go home', even if they've lived here for generations, eh? I am so tired of the 'if you have a problem with something here, leave' non-argument.
Yep, if you're so tired and so unhappy, you can leave. Millions have acted on this, otherwise immigration wouldn't exist.
Quote from: pr126 on November 03, 2014, 10:11:35 AM
If Obama, Cameron et al would correctly state on the TV that ISIS is acting according to the Quran and sunna, and it is Islam in it's purest form, and they have been doing so since 622 CE, what would be the next logical conclusion?
That ISIS and others would use it as recruitment propaganda and proof that the west is at war with and wants to destroy Islam and, therefore, it is the duty of every Muslim to join war in defense of their faith.
Quote from: Poison Tree on November 03, 2014, 11:08:25 AM
That ISIS and others would use it as recruitment propaganda and proof that the west is at war with and wants to destroy Islam and, therefore, it is the duty of every Muslim to join war in defense of their faith.
That is happening already.
We keep lying, but this is only deferring the inevitable.
Ultimately it will end in total war. That is the logical conclusion.
That is, if we want to preserve our way of life. Let's not forget our progeny. It is their future too.
This is real Islam, as is written in the Quran and sunna. ISIS follwing the perfect man (Muhammad)
Quran 33:21
Pickthall
Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
Here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2818598/Footage-shows-ISIS-fighters-attending-slave-girl-market.html#ixzz3I19OnrvI)
I don't care how it sounds from what I've seen Islam is not a peaceful religion. Especially in the middle east where you can find countless stories of religious inspired violence. I'd go on but I can't get into it now.
Quote from: pr126 on November 03, 2014, 11:30:45 AM
Ultimately it will end in total war. That is the logical conclusion.
I that is where this eventually going. I don't see any way to avoid it. I'd like to think I'm wrong. Hopefully I am, but I have this gut feeling that sometime in the next 100 years, there will be a war, a big one, nothing like the Bush thing at all. There will be clear winners and losers.
Quote from: SGOS on November 03, 2014, 01:24:10 PM
I that is where this eventually going. I don't see any way to avoid it. I'd like to think I'm wrong. Hopefully I am, but I have this gut feeling that sometime in the next 100 years, there will be a war, a big one, nothing like the Bush thing at all. There will be clear winners and losers.
Hopefully I won't be here anymore when that happens.
Quote''
I have this gut feeling that sometime in the next 100 years, there will be a war, a big one,
I think so too, and it might happen a lot sooner than that.
But as you say lets hope not, but it just seems to be how things are going with all these ''minor conflicts''going on, it would just take one incident to cause a serious escalation of violence and that would be it, WW3.
In fact im fucking surprised it hasnt happened so far....... :shifty: :borg: :wtff:
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 11:11:30 AM
Hakurei Reimu wrote:I am not sure that the families of the victims would be happy with your analogy.
The truth is not a kind thing, sadly.
Quote from: pr126 on November 02, 2014, 11:11:30 AM
But, it was an act of god. Here:
Sura 8:17 Pickthal
Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Like killing in God's name is any better.
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Hmmm, doesn't look like the Bible's any better in terms of calling for the death of unbelievers and blasphemers... :think:
Hakurei Reimu wrote:
...
Miko, find yourself a hobby, stop following me! (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=20081)
(Is it an OCD, or something personal? In either case you need counseling.)
Your quoting the bible is a tu quoque. Christians do not act on it. But Muslims do follow their scriptures.
BTW, you forgot to mention the crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, burning at the stake. -
FYI, Muslims and Islam apologist use the same arguments.
It does not make Islam look any better. It only serves as a diversion, not a defense.
The bible stories are descriptive, while the Quran is prescriptive, i.e. a divine command, the immutable word of Allah, valid for all times.
Christianity Is Just As Bad (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Christianity_Is_Just_As_Bad)
It is inevitable that in any condemnation of Islam, someone will state that christianity is just as bad. I have no idea how this relates to the conversation. It's like telling someone about your mother dying of bone cancer and they then tell you you shouldn't worry about it because colon cancer is worse.
I suspect that this is a misplaced attempt at combating racism but I would like to hear from anyone who has made this comment recently. What is it you think you are proving?
I'm not trying in any way to be confrontational. I really would like to hear the motivation/reason behind defending Islamic violence with Christian violence.
Most likely these people are saying that most religions have a darker side, and in the US, christianity is the dominant religion, therefore it is offered as a comparison with Islam. On a logical base, I agree it has no place when Islam is under scrutiny. Islam should be judged on its own.
Quote from: josephpalazzo on November 04, 2014, 07:26:05 PM
Most likely these people are saying that most religions have a darker side, and in the US, christianity is the dominant religion, therefore it is offered as a comparison with Islam. On a logical base, I agree it has no place when Islam is under scrutiny. Islam should be judged on its own.
You make a good point. I'm in Canada and we don't have anywhere near the overt christianity you have in the U.S.
I can see why you would want to remind a christian complaining about Islam that his own religion has done some very dark things. However, this reminder makes no sense to me when discussing the problems caused by islam on an atheist website with other atheists.
I brought up race as a possible explanation because of what Ben Affleck (and many other liberals) point to when islam is criticized. They say it is "racist" to lump all Muslims together when claiming that islam is violent, xenophobic and misogynistic. (which it clearly is)
Of course, everyone else is quick to point out that islam is not a race. And yet liberals continue to make this same mistake over and over and it is a very dangerous mistake to make. If you conflate islam and race, you are automatically giving islam the protections against criticism that it does not deserve.
Islam is an ideology (a set of ideas and beliefs) not a race and criticising ideas, even insulting them, is the very soul (no pun intended) of a free and open society. Liberals are on the wrong side of this issue and are falling in line with islamic apologists. Here are some examples.
Bill Maher was invited to give the commencement speech at UC Berkely, but after the Ben Affleck incident, he has been uninvited by the student association because he is a "racist". This from a liberal university?? The administration of the University is trying to override the students, but its unclear at the moment if he will still be speaking or not.
Also, I had a post on The Economist website deleted just last week because the moderator said it was a violation of their terms. I was replying to an article that was making the point that religious diversity in Mecca has disappeared since only Muslims are allowed into the city. Here was my comment:
“Perfectly in accordance with Islam.
The most hated person in the Quran is the "unbeliever". Over and over and over the "unbeliever" is vilified throughout the quran. How else would you expect followers of the quran to behave?â€
Think about the chilling effect on the conversation that liberals, who should know better, are having here. I've seen many signs held up at islamic rallies that say "Behead those who insult Islam". Well, it sure looks to me that liberals are now saying "remove the tongues of those who insult islam"
It doesn't help that they are accomplishing this figuratively rather than literally.
The racist label is used to shut people up.
Islam is not a race, it is an ideology.
And since people of many colors and ethnicity's are joining this toxic ideology, the label is not only inaccurate, it is logically absurd.
The answer is to the person using this label is to "define racist".
Quote from: pr126 on November 05, 2014, 01:05:27 AM
The racist label is used to shut people up.
Islam is not a race, it is an ideology.
And since people of many colors and ethnicity's are joining this toxic ideology, the label is not only inaccurate, it is logically absurd.
The answer is to the person using this label is to "define racist".
Tell that to Ben Affleck
Quote from: pr126 on November 04, 2014, 12:26:02 AM
Hakurei Reimu wrote:
...
Miko, find yourself a hobby, stop following me! (http://atheistforums.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=20081)
(Is it an OCD, or something personal? In either case you need counseling.)
For fuck's sake, you call this "following?" Where were you when I was taking Casperov to task about his bullshit? Just because you're my current forum project doesn't make you the only object of my waking thoughts.
And I already have a hobby. It's called
Minecraft, thank you very much.
Quote from: pr126 on November 04, 2014, 12:26:02 AM
Your quoting the bible is a tu quoque. Christians do not act on it. But Muslims do follow their scriptures.
The hell it is. Christians do, in fact, take actions based on thier scriptures. You might not see this in the UK, but every day fundamentalists in the US try to ram their religion down the throats of Americans. The only difference is that fundamentalist Christians are far savvier than their Mulsim counterparts, but the game is precisely the same.
Quote from: pr126 on November 04, 2014, 12:26:02 AM
BTW, you forgot to mention the crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, burning at the stake. -
Since you were quoting the Quran, I quoted the Bible.
Quote from: pr126 on November 04, 2014, 12:26:02 AM
FYI, Muslims and Islam apologist use the same arguments.
It does not make Islam look any better. It only serves as a diversion, not a defense.
And yet you believe that these passages in the Quran is proof positive that Muslims are some kind of unified army of conquest and not to be trusted, but when Christianity has the
exact same kind of thing in their holy book, you spin up your apologism that Christianity doesn't do that kind of thing anymore. No, spud, I don't think they ever stopped; they're just playing smarter.
Quote from: pr126 on November 04, 2014, 12:26:02 AM
The bible stories are descriptive, while the Quran is prescriptive, i.e. a divine command, the immutable word of Allah, valid for all times.
Bullshit. Deuteronomy (a part of which I quoted) is a list of
proscriptive rules for what a person of the book should do. Christians had 2000 years to get rid of it, yet it remains in the Bible. The Ten Commandments are a set of Mosaic laws that fundamentalists in my country occasionally try to ram down our throats. Commandments can only laughably be called "descriptive."
It's also laughable that there exists this sharp division in your mind between "description" and "proscription" â€" especially when the "description" is a description of what was done when someone broke the laws, and as such serve as proscriptive examples of what is to be done in similar circumstances.
Furthermore, Jesus was no figure of peace. He was a political subversive. His Kingdom of God was going to be in the real world, which meant that some other kingdom was going to yeild to it, probably violently.
"Do not think that I come to bring the peace upon earth: I came not to send peace but the sword. For I come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and the man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He, who loves father or mother more than Me, is not worthy of Me; and he, who loves son or daughter more than Me, is not worthy of Me. And he, who does not take up his cross and follow Me, is not worthy of Me" (Mat 10: 34-38).
And remember that the Bible has had 2000 years to get rid of the Old Testiment and it didn't, and it added the omnicidal snuff porn that is the book of Revelations. Christianity is no religion of peace, but of death, suffering and conquest.
But, and this is the point, you in the UK are absolutely soaking in Christians. How is it that you haven't had a nervous breakdown yet being surrounded in these potentially violent assholes who take seriously a holy book with such violent stuff in it? I'll tell you why: you've gotten to know them as people and not as cardboard cut-outs. You know that they're more complicated than the brainwashed robots following the instructions in a book that you would otherwise make them. So it is with Muslims. I've gotten to know a number over my life, and if I didn't know they were Muslim they would be indistinguishable from the Christians that surrounded me.
What I'm starting to see in Islam is the same reinterpretive warping of literal Christianity that transformed it into a less offensive religion. Islam will either adapt to the modern age, or it will die.
On a side note, if the people elect a republican president there will be another Crusade against Islam. Be back in a second.
Quote
This quote from Reza Aslan provides a fascinating look into how apologists think:
“People don’t derive their values from their religion â€" they bring their values to their religion. Which is why religions like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, [and] Islam, are experienced in such profound, wide diversity. Two individuals can look at the exact same text and come away with radically different interpretations. Those interpretations have nothing to do with the text, which is, after all, just words on a page, and everything to do with the cultural, nationalistic, ethnic, political prejudices and preconceived notions that the individual brings to the text.â€
By Ali A. Rizvi
What Aslan is saying here is pretty extraordinary. He is asserting that sizeable percentages of Muslims around the world â€" many of whom have said in multiple polls that they support killing apostates and stoning adulterers to death â€" don’t get these views from their religion, but their attitudes are somehow inherent in them as people.
Think about that for a second. Aslan isn’t being equivocal here â€" he is using absolute terms. He’s saying interpretations of the Quran have “nothing†â€" nothing â€" “to do with the text,†and “everything†â€" everything â€" to do with people’s “prejudices and preconceived notions.†In his New York Times op-ed, he wrote, “If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs.†The fault, according to Aslan, lies with people, not the scriptures.
As my friend Christopher Massie points out: “The conclusion that disproportionate numbers of intrinsically violent and misogynistic people reside in a certain region of the world could not be more bigoted or racist.â€
Recall also when Ben Affleck referred to criticism of Islam as “racist.†By saying that, he implied that Islam or its adherents are all of a particular race. This, of course, is a remarkably racist assertion in itself.
Here’s the thing: there is good reason to believe that neither Aslan nor Affleck is racist or bigoted. Why, then, would they make such bigoted statements demonizing large groups of people?
***
This is the consequence of conflating criticism of ideas with bigotry against a people.
Aslan says that these “prejudices and preconceived notions†can be “cultural, nationalistic, ethnic, political†â€" but never religious. Really? So every time a jihadist yells “Allahu Akbar†and severs the head of a non-Muslim from his body with a knife, citing verses like 47:4 and 8:12-13 from the Quran, you can blame every possible factor for his actions except the one source that literally contains the words, “Smite the disbelievers upon their necksâ€? And these words have nothing to do with an action that is completely consistent with them?
The apologist’s inevitable response will be that these words are being read too “literally.†And there’s a good reason that reading holy books “literally†â€" or exactly the way they’re written â€" terrifies religious apologists. I’m with them on this. It terrifies me too. It is for this reason that Aslan insists that approaching these holy books the way most people approach most books â€" by reading the words on their pages precisely as they are written and assuming that the author actually meant what he wanted to say â€" is somehow “unsophisticated.â€
He is partially right about one thing: thankfully, the vast majority of Muslims don’t derive all of their morality from the Quran. But he is wrong to completely dismiss those who do â€" those who don’t just dismiss scriptural passages as “words on a page,†but take them seriously.
Words have power. Aslan acknowledges this when it comes to the role of politics, culture, and nationalism in shaping people’s “prejudices†and “preconceived notions.†But he doesn’t acknowledge this when it comes to religion. This doesn’t make any rational sense, considering the incredible influence these holy books have held over billions of people for millennia, despite a plethora of scientific discoveries and advancements that have successfully countered virtually all of their claims.
Apologists like Aslan will often go to unreasonable lengths to protect inhuman ideas at the expense of real-life human beings. They will also label criticisms of ideas, books, and beliefs “bigotry†or “racism†in the absence of any substantive counter-argument.
As a brown-skinned man with a Muslim name and family who grew up in Muslim-majority countries well into my twenties, I think it is an injustice and an insult to genuine victims of anti-Muslim bigotry to exploit their pain and struggle by using it to stifle any legitimate criticism of Islam. This is precisely what umbrella terms like “Islamophobia†do.
***
Since the Maher/Harris/Affleck dust-up, this conversation has finally broken into the liberal mainstream in a big way. Moderate Muslims of the “this has nothing to do with religion†variety like Aslan are finally being called out and held accountable for their claims by their fellow liberals. Many of them are now re-evaluating their own views.
Despite the initial reflexive backlash, this is a welcome development in the long run. It is a valuable opportunity for atheists of influence to engage with a fast-growing community of reformers and secularists from the Muslim world. Sam Harris is co-writing a book with Muslim reformist and ex-jihadist Maajid Nawaz, and engaging with Irshad Manji. Brave new voices emerging from within countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are demonstrating value for honesty and introspection despite great risk to their lives. Ex-Muslims and atheists from Muslim backgrounds are coming out and organizing at unprecedented rates. These are the voices we need in our discourse, not those of disingenuous apologists like Aslan.
Ali A. Rizvi is a Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician, and musician who resides in Toronto. He is currently writing his first book, The Atheist Muslim.
Hakuret Reimu wrote:
…
I am your "forum project"? Get a life!
Quote from: Solitary on November 05, 2014, 01:47:50 PM
“People don’t derive their values from their religion â€" they bring their values to their religion. Which is why religions like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, [and] Islam, are experienced in such profound, wide diversity. Two individuals can look at the exact same text and come away with radically different interpretations. Those interpretations have nothing to do with the text, which is, after all, just words on a page, and everything to do with the cultural, nationalistic, ethnic, political prejudices and preconceived notions that the individual brings to the text.â€
This is just totally messed up. The rebuttal from Mr. Rizvi just demolishes this. I completely understand why believers in other faiths fall for this garbage. It's clear they have their own violent ideologies to defend. Their own clear cut calls to violence to excuse away. The real issue is why atheists fall for this nonsense.
I think it's a reaction to perceived prejudice. It's compassion without reason to guide it. No matter how often it is pointed out that ideologies are not people... it FEELS like they’re people and after all, people believe them and feel insulted when the ideology they have total faith in is insulted or ridiculed just for being ridiculously violent/sexist/xenophobic/etc...
Quote from: Berati on November 04, 2014, 05:27:14 PM
I'm not trying in any way to be confrontational. I really would like to hear the motivation/reason behind defending Islamic violence with Christian violence.
I would love to hear that myself.
If we profess that both faiths deserve no respect, why does it matter if one is singled out and disrespected more then the other? What twisted sense of political correctness do people think we should we be catering to in this instance, and why?
Whatever happened to trying to see things as they are?
Christianity does not have the same crippling yoke on people that is used to. No longer is there such a thing as Christendom, where Theocrats held sway.
Islam is a much different story.
Ill readily admit that Islam still has a very long way to go to match the horrible atrocities Christians have already committed, but thats not really a practical way of looking at it.
There is one comparison already.
If a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist etc. wants to leave his religion, he can do so without fear for his life. Not a Muslim.
How many of you received death threats from Christians for leaving the faith?
There are some atheist here who are trying to prove that Christianity presents a greater danger to the world than Islam.
While demonstrable evidence shows otherwise.
QuoteChristians do, in fact, take actions based on thier scriptures. You might not see this in the UK, but every day fundamentalists in the US try to ram their religion down the throats of Americans. The only difference is that fundamentalist Christians are far savvier than their Mulsim counterparts, but the game is precisely the same.
Really? Are you sure? 24286 and counting. (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/)
Where do Christians hide the corpses in America?
How soon do you expect slave markets (http://www.iraqinews.com/features/exclusive-isis-document-sets-prices-christian-yazidi-slaves/) by Christians in America?
Any of this (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4840/iran-acid-attacks) by Christians in America?
Quote... every day fundamentalists in the US try to ram their religion down the throats of Americans.
Islam would never do that!
Islamizing the Public Schools (http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/joseph-klein/islamizing-the-public-schools/)
Stop the Madrassa: A Citizen’s Guide to Islamist Curricula in Our Public Schools (http://stopthemadrassa.wordpress.com/about/a-citizen%E2%80%99s-guide-to-islamist-curricula-in-our-public-schools/)
Islam In Our Schools (http://www.islaminourschools.com/)
And of course da'wa everywhere. Also called "Interfaith dialog, outreach, MESA. (http://www.mesa.arizona.edu/)
Not that anyone would notice.
Quote from: Cocoa Beware on November 05, 2014, 11:26:09 PM
What twisted sense of political correctness do people think we should we be catering to in this instance, and why?
I believe I know the answer. It's caused by a conflation of ideology with people. You criticize islam... they defend muslims.
It's well meaning, but ultimately a betrayal of secular liberal morals that do not allow a free pass to any ideology.
Having said that, I can totally see the conflation problem working in the opposite direction. For instance, while it is perfectly OK to criticise, and insult communism(ideology), it is NOT ok to go on a communist (person) witch hunt. And yet this is exactly what happened in the past, so the same danger is still present.
However, this danger is still not reason enough to place islam or any other deeply held ideological belief on an unassailable pedestal and give it the same protections we would give to "race" for instance.
It is the "Vast Majority of Moderate Muslims" TM that are being protected by all and sundry.
I believe that it is just a wishful thinking, there is no proof of that. There cannot be.
There are Muslims who are inactive but the belief in the ideology is there, and they can be activated instantly by "radicalization, i.e made aware of their religious duties as Muslims. An offer they cannot refuse.
Look at the Muslims flocking to the killing fields of ISIS from all the countries, be it Islamic or Western.
There is no sure way to distinguish between radical and moderate.
The narrative purports a billion moderate Muslims, (Ben Affleck and Co.) without providing any evidence.
Again, wishful thinking, otherwise the reality is too frightening to contemplate.
To say it bluntly, the non Muslim world is scared witless from the "Tiny Minority of Extremist TM
That is why the meme of "the Vast Majority of Moderate Muslims" is spread.
Of course the Moderates do nothing at all to stop the Radicals. How can they?
BTW, the Tiny Minority of Extremist need logistics, money, weapons (courtesy of the USA), support and safe places which are provided by the Vast Majority of Moderates TM and of course us, the non Muslims.
They could not have metastasized this far without infidel help.
Here is a thought, anybody ever heard the term Vast Majority of Moderate Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist, Sikhs, Shintos, Jains, Animist? Do they exist?
Why now? This has been going on for years with our governments approval while kissing the Saudis asses.
Quote
ISIS Beheadings Are Repugnant â€" As Are Those Carried Out In Great Numbers By Our Pious Saudi “Friendsâ€
Newsweek asks a good question: Why, if Americans are so horrified by the ISIS beheadings, do we collectively shrug about the beheadings carried out by Saudi Arabia, our so-called ally?
Since the beginning of the year, 59 people have had their heads chopped off in the Islamic paradise, in cases that wouldn’t pass judicial muster in a halfway enlightened nation.
The Saudi legal system is based on Islam’s Sharia law. Some countries that use Sharia possess a penal code, but Saudi Arabia does not.
This is what awaits the condemned.
If you are a prisoner in Riyadh, the capital, you might be taken to the ocher-colored Deera Square, which has acquired a macabre sobriquet: Chop Chop Square. Before you arrive, police and security forces will have prepared the area. It may have been cordoned off to keep curious spectators at a distance, but they will congregate nonetheless.
You will be led to the center of the square, on the bare earth. According to one of Saudi Arabia’s state executioners, Mohammed Saad al-Beshi, who was interviewed in the Saudi newspaper Arab News in June 2003, your energy is likely to fade at this point, from sheer exhaustion and fear. You will not fight for your life, nor protest against your restraints.
Also because usually there’s Valium or another sedative coursing through your system â€" a pill that the regime touts as a kind offering to calm the convict’s nerves, but which is also to the executioner’s benefit: less chance of fear, panic, and writhing.
Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/16/isis-beheadings-are-repugnant-as-are-those-carried-out-in-great-numbers-by-our-pious-saudi-friends/#ixzz3IJ9GO1Z3
The executioner â€" always a man â€" is not allowed to talk to his victim. He reads your charge and some verses from the Quran. You are blindfolded, which is extremely important, and not for humanitarian reasons. If, when the sword is coming down, you turn in fearful anticipation, things could get messy. The blade might not sever with a single chop, or the executioner could miss his mark. The blood won’t be neatly caught by the plastic bags, and the head might not be so easy to scoop up…
Even in death, you are not liberated. Your murder is meant to be a sign to the people in the crowd that Saudi Arabia does not tolerate dissent. A loudspeaker announces your crime. Your body may be taken away to be buried immediately. But if you were accused of banditry or drug smuggling, like seven Yemenis who were beheaded last year, your corpse will also be crucified.
Mohammed Saad al-Beshi’s most productive day so far was when he beheaded seven prisoners. He told Arab News, “It doesn’t matter to me: Two, four, 10 â€" as long as I’m doing God’s will, it doesn’t matter how many people I execute.â€
Al-Beshi started his trade in Jeddah in 1988, but many of the beheaders [there is currently a shortage of them] come from a long line of executioners, an occupation passed from generation to generation, like a cherished heirloom.
They’re nothing if not versatile.
In Saudi Arabia, at least, the executioner isn’t limited to separating bodies from heads. He also cuts off other body parts â€" hands, legs â€" depending on the crime.
Newsweek notes that the most recent beheading victim was convicted of â€" no joke â€" sorcery. Some Saudi prisoners are put to death for political dissent.
Also, last year a Saudi defendant who’d caused another man to become paralyzed was ordered to undergo the same fate, reportedly by having the executioner sever his spinal cord.
Through it all, the silence from the West is deafening.
George W. Bush, for one, made it clear that he would rather hold hands with the Saudi King â€" and repeatedly kiss him, see the video below â€" than ask the despot to stop the head-chopping barbarity. That attitude continues: Last month, Secretary of State John Kerry traveled to Saudi Arabia to strategize about ways to stop the human-rights violations perpetrated by ISIS. As expected, Kerry gave the Saudi executions a free pass, never raising the subject.
Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/16/isis-beheadings-are-repugnant-as-are-those-carried-out-in-great-numbers-by-our-pious-saudi-friends/#ixzz3IJ9lM17s