Not sure if i want to be christian anymore?

[stromboli]

"Eve" evolutionary Eve, that is is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

In the field of human genetics, the name Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living anatomically modern humans, who is estimated to have lived approximately 140,000–200,000 years ago. This is the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother's side, and through the mothers of those mothers, and so on, back until all lines converge on one person. Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve".

Versus Y Chromosome Adam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

The age for the Y-MRCA has been variously estimated as 188,000,[2] 270,000,[3] 306,000,[4] and 142,000[5] A paper published in March 2013 reported an older estimate of 338,000 years.[6] Then two simultaneous reports in August 2013 provide younger estimates, one suggested 180,000 to 200,000 years,[7] and another, based on the genome sequence of nine different populations, indicated the age between 120,000 and 156,000 years.[8]

Gosh. Looks like the two never met. Sad. Our lineage is complicated and long, but it didn't start in the Garden of Eden with your god breathing life into clay. And men don't have a missing rib, and Eve wasn't made from one. If you claim to be a christian and you believe in evolution, you are denying the story in Genesis. That would be the bible, your book of holy writ.

[leo]

"Eve" evolutionary Eve, that is is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

In the field of human genetics, the name Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living anatomically modern humans, who is estimated to have lived approximately 140,000–200,000 years ago. This is the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother's side, and through the mothers of those mothers, and so on, back until all lines converge on one person. Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve".

Versus Y Chromosome Adam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

The age for the Y-MRCA has been variously estimated as 188,000,[2] 270,000,[3] 306,000,[4] and 142,000[5] A paper published in March 2013 reported an older estimate of 338,000 years.[6] Then two simultaneous reports in August 2013 provide younger estimates, one suggested 180,000 to 200,000 years,[7] and another, based on the genome sequence of nine different populations, indicated the age between 120,000 and 156,000 years.[8]

Gosh. Looks like the two never met. Sad. Our lineage is complicated and long, but it didn't start in the Garden of Eden with your god breathing life into clay. And men don't have a missing rib, and Eve wasn't made from one. If you claim to be a christian and you believe in evolution, you are denying the story in Genesis. That would be the bible, your book of holy writ.

Ha ha epic! :)

[goodwithoutgod]

This lead me to question my own beliefs. I realized that my trust and belief has been in the church and my family/friands because that is how i have grown up and all ive ever known.

That was a mistake. Your trust should be first in God  not Church. Then God would teach you the truth

---Never put your trust in a myth. Most definitely never put trust in a church. No one on this earth can prove god has spoken to them, or in anyway taught them something. Your BELIEF may have led you to feel a certain way, but god did not teach you anything. GWG

It has been more of a lifestyle for me than an actual faith.

Exactly. Lifestyle is never a FOUNDATION of faith or trust.

---Faith: pretending to know things you don't. Faith is an epistemology. it is a method and a process people use to understand reality. Faith based conclusions are knowledge claims. Those who make faith claims are professing to know something about the external world. Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before, and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010 and 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick and Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997 and 2011, Smith 1979, Stenger and Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc etc) If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, then any further conclusions drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. Believing on the basis of insufficent evidence cannot point one towards the truth.

"No amount of belief makes something a fact" James Randi
GWG

My friends at university have also explained to me about evolution (something i had very little understanding of before) and i even started researching about it myself.

Good for you. New  knowledge is always good. Education is always good. This is what God always teaches me.

---Knowledge is power. Education is the key....god can not teach you anything, because god a) existence is highly doubtful, b) doesnt speak to you, and if you hear voices, go see a doctor c) if some other human tells you they know what god wants, or they hear god, or they have god's ear...walk away, quickly
GWG

I have come to the conclusion that evolution is real and this contradicts the bible.

Wrong conclusion. Bible even doesn't mention or explain evolution. Then how can it contradict?

---Bible has a very interesting, totally debunkable fairy tale of creationism, I recommend science. The only thing the bible contradicts is itself, as it is full of inconsistencies and contradictions. GWG

I'm not sure if i believe what it says in the bible but i do believe in evolution. I'm not sure if this makes me an atheist or not.

You believe in evolution?!! Why? Don't you already KNOW that evolution is REAL?

---Not required to BELIEVE it, it is simply the most logical theory, backed by science.GWG

[frosty]

Eve also seems to be doubting their faith. They have joined a little more than a week ago, yet they already have more posts than me. It seems Eve is going through a little faith doubting self confidence crisis of their own and so they need to act like a Christian intellectual(sic) on atheistforums.com to re-assure themselves of what they think they know.

[Loneboat]

Lots of good points brought up.

To OP:

I was raised conservative Christian as well. It sounds like you are beginning to think for yourself which is a good thing. Even if you "decide" in the end you still have your Christian faith, NEVER let anyone along the way dissuade you from asking the questions you have.

From my personal experience, I finally admitted to myself I was atheist agnostic about 4 years ago....but it wasn't a choice to "become" atheist. I just realized I had always been!! Christianity never sat well with me. It never fit in my ear. It was like I was finally my authentic self. And my journey to get there started very much like yours....questioning simple things that religion can not explain.

Keep on questioning!!

[Eve]

Our lineage is complicated and long, but it didn't start in the Garden of Eden with your god breathing life into clay.

I agree with you.
But Bible doesn't say it(lineage) is simple and that it starts in the Garden of Eden.
Please, help me to find this:
1)place in the Bible where it says that our lineage started in the Garden of Eden?
2)place where it says when exactly Adam and Eve were created?
Thank you in advance.

Gosh. Looks like the two never met. Sad.

May be you are right but please show me the place in the Bible were it says how long Adam lived before he was placed in the Garden of Eden? And where does it say that Adam didn't have any ancestors before he was placed in the Garden of Eden?

And men don't have a missing rib, and Eve wasn't made from one. If you claim to be a christian and you believe in evolution, you are denying the story in Genesis. That would be the bible, your book of holy writ.

I agree but Bible is silent about how to understand this. In verse 24 we read that Adam and Eve shall be one flesh. But does Bible tell us how to understand this? A: No. It can mean that they will get one body literally. Or it can mean that they will become one union/one family and will have children. Or they will have unity in everything - love, faith, goals.
"Eve was taken out of rib". It can mean that Eve was created literally out of Adams rib. It can mean that wife or woman was created  always to be on her husband's side. I f this is correct understanding then we don't know where, how and when Eve was created. Then Bible is silent about Eve's literal creation and if she had any ancestors.
Bible does say that Adam and Eve were created in the IMAGE AND LIKENESS of Gods( in OUR image) - male and female. We may assume that Gods are Male  and Female and They gave Their DNA to Adam and Eve.  
So how do you know how to understand this(about rib and one flesh) if Bible doesn't explain?

[PghPanther]

The decision of how to live your life and your world view should be based on researching the evidence to determine that conclusion........regardless of what you want or what others say you should strive to establish your position based on what you can demonstrate and confirm as reliable through exercising critical thinking.

My path to the jettison of my faith came about by a careful and opened minded study of the sourcing of biblical manuscripts and the dubious construction of the biblical canon. I knew after realizing what many are taught in seminary that even conservatives know there is ample questioning among the validity of what is claimed as factual events and statements throughout the bible.

It became apparent to me that the bible is not a text of an inspired holy source but a manipulation (if even benevolently) of human insecurities placed on a supernatural agent......and that it sources of copies claimed from oral traditional hersay is no way to establish any truth to what happened in those times..........In fact the desire for Christian apologists attempting to validate eyewitness accounts is a dangerous assumption of their accuracy as we know how inaccurate they can be as well.

But you must determine your own conclusions by an independent study of the bible's source and creation.............

With all the problems in the biblical text I read as a believer and all the science education I had in conflict with the bible.......I still held on to my belief until I realized the biblical text is no more credible in divinity claims as any other ancient textual mythology.

[Eve]

---Not required to BELIEVE it, it is simply the most logical theory, backed by science.GWG

I don't argue with this logical theory. I am not a scientist and I am not a pro in biology but I do know one thing: Bible does NOT contradict evolution. Depends how you understand Bible.
see my post above if you wish of course.

[Solitary]

Eve, you need to learn Serpentise and talk to a serpent, learn  mulette to talk to a mule, and learn Bushette to talk to a burning Bush, and they will teach you to understand who the other gods God talked to and what the BuyBul means. First thing you have to do is have an open mind so open your brain falls out. Solitary

[Eve]

Eve, you need to learn Serpentise and talk to a serpent, learn  mulette to talk to a mule, and learn Bushette to talk to a burning Bush, and they will teach you to understand who the other gods God talked to and what the BuyBul means. First thing you have to do is have an open mind so open your brain falls out. Solitary

Solitary, there is one FACT: prophets of the Bible used symbols when they were writing their books. Read Book of Revelation and tell me what language you need to speak to understand what John was talking about.

Scriptures are full of symbols. And there are reasons for that. One of the reason is that BELIEVERS will LEARN and REMEMBER faster and better but for unbeliers it will be HIDDEN manna.
Unbelievers can NOT have PRIVILEGE to understand symbolic language of the prophets.

But still: where does it say in the Bible that Adam was created in the Garden of Eden and that he had no lineage? male and female were created in OUR image. Who are "Us"?

[Eve]

Lots of good points brought up.
Christianity never sat well with me. It never fit in my ear. It was like I was finally my authentic self. And my journey to get there started very much like yours....questioning simple things that religion can not explain.

Keep on questioning!!

It didn't fit in my ear until I heard Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It answered almost all MY questions and I am sure it can answer almost all your questions.
Welcome and I wish you the best. I hope your family will understand you and respect your believes. It is very important.

[mauricio]

Scriptures are full of symbols. And there are reasons for that. One of the reason is that BELIEVERS will LEARN and REMEMBER faster and better but for unbeliers it will be HIDDEN manna.
Unbelievers can NOT have PRIVILEGE to understand symbolic language of the prophets.

oh hahaha  :rollin:  so you will understand better if i go all poetic mode instead of telling it straight? poetic resources have their place, in literature that is, when you are trying to teach people you tell it like it is and in detail, if you try to riddle your writing with subjective metaphors you get kicked in the butt in any respectable academic circle.

seems to me that what you really meant was that believers will find whatever interpretation they want and make it fit with their preconceived notions like you and every other believer does and that is why they can't agree with each other, which proves that it is not a better way to clearly communicate a message.

And believing in bullshit or not has nothing to do with being able to interpret symbols I have been reading classic literature since i was 10, literary analysis and interpreting symbols is probably my best skill, I understand all interpretation are subjective in the end , specially when dealing with texts so cryptic, ancient and messed up by translations. So no believers don't have a magic power of interpretation, much less you with the deficient analysis skills you have shown (we have 30 pages of you being more dense than a block of osmium)

[SGOS]

But Bible doesn't say it(lineage) is simple and that it starts in the Garden of Eden
1)place in the Bible where it says that our lineage started in the Garden of Eden?
2)place where it says when exactly Adam and Eve were created?...

May be you are right but please show me the place in the Bible were it says how long Adam lived before he was placed in the Garden of Eden? And where does it say that Adam didn't have any ancestors before he was placed in the Garden of Eden?...

In verse 24 we read that Adam and Eve shall be one flesh. But does Bible tell us how to understand this? A: No. It can mean that they will get one body literally. Or it can mean that they will become one union/one family and will have children. Or they will have unity in everything - love, faith, goals...

So how do you know how to understand this(about rib and one flesh) if Bible doesn't explain?...

I can't show you much of any place in the Bible that explains why such literal statements should be accepted as metaphors.  I can't find a place in the Bible that says these supposedly metaphorical statements are not meant to be literal.  The purpose of the Bible is not to show itself to be false.   You are saying the Bible is not literally true, but that it's not false either.

How am I, as a rational person, supposed to make any sense out of that kind of thinking?  It's not really true, but it's not really false?  You can't have it both ways, unless you are willing to accept that such self contradictory  gibberish has magic properties that only allows believers to understand the meaning.

If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?  No, no!  That would be too simple.  It has to be written as a metaphor that hides the mechanics of evolution in such a way that it ends up saying something that ancient men accepted as  literal, but modern discoverers can only accept as metaphors.  But at all costs it apparently must avoid explaining reality as it is.

Why is that?  The simple explanation is that the Bible doesn't know what it's talking about.  It's just stories made up by uneducated people for other uneducated people 3000 years ago.  As far as explaining reality and contributing to man's scientific progress, it's totally useless.  Its only purpose is feeding simple minds that want to believe they are descendants of a powerful god, and that they will live forever.  That's nice and all for those with massively inflated egos, but reality isn't all that bad.  It offers a lot of good things in life that religions claim their gods created.  Atheists just accept them as good without making them into miracles.  You don't need magic to exist.  It won't make you a better person, and it won't make you live forever.  Magic is not real.  You need to accept that.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?

Better question: If the Bible is full of scientific facts, why is it written more like its contemporary mythology than its contemporary science?

[PickelledEggs]

If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?

Better question: If the Bible is full of scientific facts, why is it written more like its contemporary mythology than its contemporary science?

I like both of these questions.

I like them because the answer is: "The bible is bologna"