What being a Christian "Was" like

[Randy Carson]

By that criteria the RCC is flawed because the Pagan religions existed long before your cult.

No, reasonist, that does not follow.

The Catholic Church was the original and only Christian Church for the first 1200 years or so (depending of what you want to do with the Copts and the final schism of the Orthodox). Then we move on another 300 years or so before Luther, Calvin and Henry VIII.

So, if you want to examine Christian doctrine BEFORE the heresy of Protestantism, you need to look at what the Earliest Christians believed. Their writings are still largely available to us, and they are, as you will find, much closer to Catholic and Orthodox than they are to Baptist and Presbyterian.

If I am taken to task for espousing Catholic doctrine, well, it's because Catholic doctrine today can be traced all the way back to the beginning. Protestantism contains theological novelties unknown for the first 1,500 years of Christendom.

[reasonist]

No, reasonist, that does not follow.

The Catholic Church was the original and only Christian Church for the first 1200 years or so (depending of what you want to do with the Copts and the final schism of the Orthodox). Then we move on another 300 years or so before Luther, Calvin and Henry VIII.

So, if you want to examine Christian doctrine BEFORE the heresy of Protestantism, you need to look at what the Earliest Christians believed. Their writings are still largely available to us, and they are, as you will find, much closer to Catholic and Orthodox than they are to Baptist and Presbyterian.

If I am taken to task for espousing Catholic doctrine, well, it's because Catholic doctrine today can be traced all the way back to the beginning. Protestantism contains theological novelties unknown for the first 1,500 years of Christendom.

No, no no! LOL Look at the time BEFORE Jesus and BEFORE Moses. That's where all the mythology originated. You know exactly what I meant, ignoring it won't add to your credibility.

[shadyace]

Consider yourself lucky, at my current place of employment when asked if I'm Christian and my response is no the next question is am I illuminati or a devil worshiper.

I heard the one woman say once that if you see a little girl bend over, put her legs between her head and look at you, you will become pregnant... Religion and stupidity go hand in hand in my opinion.


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[Baruch]

By that criteria the RCC is flawed because the Pagan religions existed long before your cult.

The RCC is noted in particular, for taking over old local pagan cults, by posthumously converting the local deity to Catholic sainthood (a bit like Mormonism) and building a church on the old pagan shrine.  Repurposing local tradition, one pagan at a time ;-)

[Mike Cl]

Really, Randy?  From the beginning (and how does one figure out when that was???), the Catholic Church was a unified, whole religion marching in lock-step into the future?  I don't think so. The very name 'catholic' smacks of power politics.  It was universal???  Only after the fact and after all the non-universal voices were silenced and the records expunged, was it universal. 

As one website puts it: "In the first two centuries of the Christian era, the New Testament had not yet been finalized and the definitive orthodox statement of belief, the Nicene Creed, was still many years in the future. The Roman world was home to many sects labeled “Christian” that would seem odd and downright weird to us this side of the Council of Nicea. If you think that modern Christian sects are so variegated and confusing, read onâ€"and they will seem staid and tame in comparison to the free-for-all nature of early Christianity."

To name a few, these were some of those opposing voices:
Simonians
Montanists
Carpocratians
Marconsians
Valentinians
Basilideans
Ophites
Sethians
Phibionites
Destroyed by the 'universal' church.  Yes, the Catholic Church has a bloody history.  And you can throw in the other 'Catholics' as well, such as the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, the Egyptian Coptics and the Ethiopian Coptics, to name a few, as well.

[Baruch]

Foundation myths are always retro ... and the authors of such hope that in time people forget what actually happened, and they usually do.  Even in my lifetime, there are people who weren't alive back then, who say good things about Nixon.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

No, reasonist, that does not follow.

The Catholic Church was the original and only Christian Church for the first 1200 years or so (depending of what you want to do with the Copts and the final schism of the Orthodox).

Catholicism branched off from Orthodox, not the other way around. The Pope didn't like being subordinate to the Emperor, and the Ecumenical Patriarch was getting tired of his shit.

Granted, I can certainly understand not wanting to take orders from Constantinople, but at least be honest about where the branching off occurred.

[Baruch]

Part of the Catholic myth, is they weren't founded by Constantine, and subordinate to the Emperor and the Patriarch in Constantinople, from the beginning.  The power of the Emperor in the West receded, and there was rebellion among the other patriarchs (Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Rome).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy

Originally Marianism, that only became prominent in Catholicism in the early 19th century, was a partisan move by the Patriarch of Alexandria, St Cyril.

After the Lombard invasion of Italy, the Emperor lost control, until a new Emperor arose in the West, Charlemagne, and the Bishop of Rome became the bitch of France ... a struggle that went on until after the French Revolution.  Germany, Austria and Spain contended at times for control of Rome as well, while the Papal States struggled to maintain independence until they were taken away by Italy in 1870, when French troops protecting the Papal States were removed, which had been there since Napoleon.

[Randy Carson]

No, no no! LOL Look at the time BEFORE Jesus and BEFORE Moses. That's where all the mythology originated. You know exactly what I meant, ignoring it won't add to your credibility.

We can discuss those things at some point, of course.

But either Jesus rose from the dead, or Christianity is a lie.

It begins with the resurrection.

[Randy Carson]

Consider yourself lucky, at my current place of employment when asked if I'm Christian and my response is no the next question is am I illuminati or a devil worshiper.

I heard the one woman say once that if you see a little girl bend over, put her legs between her head and look at you, you will become pregnant... Religion and stupidity go hand in hand in my opinion.


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If that is your opinion, then I think religion has no monopoly on stupidity.

[Mike Cl]

We can discuss those things at some point, of course.

But either Jesus rose from the dead, or Christianity is a lie.

It begins with the resurrection.

What begins with the resurrection?  Oh, yeah, the lie.

[Randy Carson]

The RCC is noted in particular, for taking over old local pagan cults, by posthumously converting the local deity to Catholic sainthood (a bit like Mormonism) and building a church on the old pagan shrine.  Repurposing local tradition, one pagan at a time ;-)

Yep. Consider the fate of the pagan religions.

Catholics overran pagan cities, towns and lands, bought and occupied pagan buildings and temples, altered pagan art, music and literature, absorbed and replaced pagan harvest festivals and religious feasts, and, above all, won over and converted the pagan people themselves. In doing so, Catholics brought all things under the dominion of the one true God, Jesus Christ.

Isn't that what He wanted us to do (cf. Mt 28:19)?

Tertullian (A.D. 160-220) wrote:

We began just yesterday, and already we fill the world and all your places: the cities, the islands, the towns, the municipalities, the councils, even the army camps, the tribunals, the assemblies, the palace, the senate, and the forum. We have left you only your temples! (Tertullian, Apology, 37.4)

Scripture sanctions this practice. The Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was on the same day as a Canaanite vintage festival that it supplanted, much as Christmas coincided with the festival of Sol Invictus that non-Christians were celebrating.

This is the same principle that Protestant churches use today when they replace the celebration of Halloween with "Reformation Day" or "harvest festival" celebrations. It is an attempt to provide a wholesome alternative celebration to a popular but unwholesome one. Anti-Catholics who accuse Christmas of having "pagan origins" fail to recognize that it is precisely anti-pagan in origin.

[Randy Carson]

What begins with the resurrection?  Oh, yeah, the lie.

What a mindless response.

Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn't.

[Randy Carson]

Really, Randy?  From the beginning (and how does one figure out when that was???), the Catholic Church was a unified, whole religion marching in lock-step into the future?  I don't think so. The very name 'catholic' smacks of power politics.  It was universal???  Only after the fact and after all the non-universal voices were silenced and the records expunged, was it universal. 

As one website puts it: "In the first two centuries of the Christian era, the New Testament had not yet been finalized and the definitive orthodox statement of belief, the Nicene Creed, was still many years in the future. The Roman world was home to many sects labeled “Christian” that would seem odd and downright weird to us this side of the Council of Nicea. If you think that modern Christian sects are so variegated and confusing, read onâ€"and they will seem staid and tame in comparison to the free-for-all nature of early Christianity."

To name a few, these were some of those opposing voices:
Simonians
Montanists
Carpocratians
Marconsians
Valentinians
Basilideans
Ophites
Sethians
Phibionites
Destroyed by the 'universal' church.  Yes, the Catholic Church has a bloody history.  And you can throw in the other 'Catholics' as well, such as the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, the Egyptian Coptics and the Ethiopian Coptics, to name a few, as well.

Riiiiight.

And for an opposing opinion regarding these heresies, some guys who were actually there at the time:

Tertullian

“Where was [the heretic] Marcian, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago â€" in the reign of Antoninus [AD 138-161] for the most part â€" and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus [AD 175-189], until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled. . . . Afterward . . . Marcian professed repentance and agreed to the conditions granted to him â€" that he should receive reconciliation if he restored to the Church all the others whom he had been training for perdition; he was prevented, however, by death.” (Demurrer Against the Heretics, 20, [A.D. 200]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“They who have not peace themselves now offer peace to others. They who have withdrawn from the Church promise to lead back and to recall the lapsed to the Church. There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one Chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering.” (Letter of Cyprian to All His People 43 (40), 5 [A.D. 251]).

Augustine

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. When heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. They will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard.” (The True Religion 7:12, [A.D. 390]).

"[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,' when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation' 4:5 [AD 397]).

[Mike Cl]

What a mindless response.

Either Jesus rose from the dead or he didn't.

My response was 'mindless'??  :)))))))))  Okay.  You quote a so called book, that is called The Word of God, all with not a shred of factual foundation evidence to support it.  And I'm the 'mindless' one, say the brainwashed disciple of a fictional religion.  :)))))))))))))))))))))