Can someone update me on Catholics?

[marom1963]

Wikipedia said something abot Pius XII 'accepting' evolution. As for JPII he still insisted on soul.

But what matters more pope Francis while willing to accept both theorirs see them as a god works. As long as curch will try to inser god into science I don't think that we could talk about it genuine acceptance of said theories.

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Well, evolution does not preclude the soul ...  All it does, really, is deny the Genesis story of Adam and Eve ... No one can prove that evolution is not how God works. The pope has us there ...
You cannot prove that something - God, anything - does not exist. That is why the ball is always in OUR court - if only we would realize it! You can, however, always prove that something does exist - well, prove that God exists. They cannot. But we keep letting them get away w/their bullshit.

[Mike Cl]

Well, evolution does not preclude the soul ...  All it does, really, is deny the Genesis story of Adam and Eve ... No one can prove that evolution is not how God works. The pope has us there ...
You cannot prove that something - God, anything - does not exist. That is why the ball is always in OUR court - if only we would realize it! You can, however, always prove that something does exist - well, prove that God exists. They cannot. But we keep letting them get away w/their bullshit.

I used to agree that we cannot prove that god does not exist.  But I don't think that way any more.  It is always harder to prove a negative.  Saying that god does not exist is a negative; and how does one gather empirical evidence for that?  I start with the lack of evidence is evidence stance.  If a negative cannot be shown to have at least one positive, I'd say that is proof that said negative does not exist.  I cannot give you any empirical evidence that Pecos Bill or the Tooth Fairy exists.  So, they must be fiction.  God(s) is in the same category.  There is not one piece of empirical evidence to support the existence of god.  God then, does not exist.  That is the same stance I take with Jesus Christ.  There is no one shred of empirical evidence that he existed.  He is simply a myth.   

[Shukhov]

Well, evolution does not preclude the soul ...  All it does, really, is deny the Genesis story of Adam and Eve ... No one can prove that evolution is not how God works. The pope has us there ...

Neither does it propose existence of something called soul. Pope was just pulling things out of his ass. Also it is the other side which must prove that evolution is a work of god, not to mention existence of god to begin with.

You cannot prove that something - God, anything - does not exist. That is why the ball is always in OUR court - if only we would realize it! You can, however, always prove that something does exist - well, prove that God exists. They cannot. But we keep letting them get away w/their bullshit.

As for proving, Jerry Coyne wrote good article on the subject - https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/you-cant-prove-a-negative/

[marom1963]

Neither does it propose existence of something called soul. Pope was just pulling things out of his ass. Also it is the other side which must prove that evolution is a work of god, not to mention existence of god to begin with.

As for proving, Jerry Coyne wrote good article on the subject - https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/you-cant-prove-a-negative/

I agree. My points exactly. It is their job to prove that God exists, not our job to prove that God does not exist - and this would be regardless of evolution.

[Shukhov]

I agree. My points exactly. It is their job to prove that God exists, not our job to prove that God does not exist - and this would be regardless of evolution.

Sure it is their job. As for evolution though I don't think that we could say about acceptance when pope still insist on god starting it. But that's irrelevant as pope don't get to decide what is true and I see no reason to care about what some old man thinks.

[marom1963]

Sure it is their job. As for evolution though I don't think that we could say about acceptance when pope still insist on god starting it. But that's irrelevant as pope don't get to decide what is true and I see no reason to care about what some old man thinks.

I don't care what he thinks, per se; however, there are over 1 billion Roman Catholics in the World - an atheist would be a fool to ignore the pope. What the pope thinks is important in the World - like what the President of the United States thinks, the President of Russia thinks, etc. He can't be discounted.

[Shukhov]

I don't care what he thinks, per se; however, there are over 1 billion Roman Catholics in the World - an atheist would be a fool to ignore the pope. What the pope thinks is important in the World - like what the President of the United States thinks, the President of Russia thinks, etc. He can't be discounted.

Give me some evidence for pope nonsense mattering in the world, really mattering like influencing some important decisions. Sure media are gushing how great he is but that's just pope having good PR nothing more. Pope is not Putin, nor Obama and Vatican don't have nuclear weapons or military bases in many countries.

He can be discounted. In fact he is as in Poland not even clergy care about what he say; he is discounted as a leftist pope among more hardcore believers.

[marom1963]

Give me some evidence for pope nonsense mattering in the world, really mattering like influencing some important decisions. Sure media are gushing how great he is but that's just pope having good PR nothing more. Pope is not Putin, nor Obama and Vatican don't have nuclear weapons or military bases in many countries.

He can be discounted. In fact he is as in Poland not even clergy care about what he say; he is discounted as a leftist pope among more hardcore believers.

And what exactly is the difference between having vast amounts of money at your command and excellent PR and being very powerful? The pope does not leave the Vatican w/o it making world-wide news. Sorry, the death/election of a pope gets more news coverage than the election of a US president - even in the US. Not bad for what you claim is essentially a nobody. Millions turn out to see this guy when he shows up. I was in NY when Benedict came - more security for him than for the then President Bush - and far more people had come to see Benedict. NJ, where I live now, was tied up for days because Francis was coming for a visit. The whole state was abuzz b/c there was a lottery where people could win tickets to the papal mass - people - Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, atheists - were all vying to get tickets to see him.  Springstein should sell out so fast! So, if nothing more, the pope is a giant celebrity, a huge "rock star", if you will. Millions turned out to see on his state visit to the United States. The ones on TV looked pretty faithful to me, clutching their rosaries, saying "God bless him!" A lot of Catholics still believe that the pope is God's man on earth, whether you like it.

[Shukhov]

And what exactly is the difference between having vast amounts of money at your command and excellent PR and being very powerful?

His "excellent" PR means that world see him as good guy. It hardly makes him powerful, just popular with naive people.

The pope does not leave the Vatican w/o it making world-wide news. Sorry, the death/election of a pope gets more news coverage than the election of a US president - even in the US. Not bad for what you claim is essentially a nobody.

Wow. You convinced me. None of this means shit. Pope is popular with media but that does not mean that his words have some real influence on decision making of real players.

Millions turn out to see this guy when he shows up. I was in NY when Benedict came - more security for him than for the then President Bush - and far more people had come to see Benedict. NJ, where I live now, was tied up for days because Francis was coming for a visit.

Even if it is really millions it only mean that pope is popular. Popular and influential are different things. Rocks stars are popular too.

The whole state was abuzz b/c there was a lottery where people could win tickets to the papal mass - people - Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, atheists - were all vying to get tickets to see him.  Springstein should sell out so fast! So, if nothing more, the pope is a giant celebrity, a huge "rock star", if you will. Millions turned out to see on his state visit to the United States. The ones on TV looked pretty faithful to me, clutching their rosaries, saying "God bless him!" A lot of Catholics still believe that the pope is God's man on earth, whether you like it.

You proved that pope is popular, that he is some kind of church rock star. Nothing you said points to him being influential. Also lot of man on earth care not about pope, whether you like it or not.

Face it pope is just a guy with good PR, he is Gorbachev but without his power and nuclear might and his back and call.

[ApostateLois]

Millions of children's lives are ruined every day because one of the  Pope's choices is to protect pedophiles in the church. Millions of women will be forced to have babies they don't want and/or can't afford because the Pope thinks birth control and abortion are evil. Some of those women will die in childbirth because of the power wielded by this, and previous, popes. Does the Pope have power? You bet he does. And he is one of the nicer ones. Some popes in the past were monsters. We are lucky to be living in an age when THAT kind of power, at least, is illegal...for now. But who knows what the future might bring? Maybe the next guy will try to bring back the rack and thumb screws as punishment for heresy.

[Baruch]

Sukhov - so you give more credit to lessening of leash by Gorbachev, than pressure by J2P2, for inspiring the freedom of Poland from the Russians?  The religious in the US definitely credit the magic powers of J2P2.

[Mike Cl]

Neither does it propose existence of something called soul. Pope was just pulling things out of his ass. Also it is the other side which must prove that evolution is a work of god, not to mention existence of god to begin with.

As for proving, Jerry Coyne wrote good article on the subject - https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/10/14/you-cant-prove-a-negative/

Hey, thanks for the article.  That is what I have been trying to say for awhile now.  The absence of god does prove god does not exist.  Absolutely. 

[Shukhov]

Hey, thanks for the article.  That is what I have been trying to say for awhile now.  The absence of god does prove god does not exist.  Absolutely.

No problem.

Sukhov - so you give more credit to lessening of leash by Gorbachev, than pressure by J2P2, for inspiring the freedom of Poland from the Russians?  The religious in the US definitely credit the magic powers of J2P2.

Of course. Were it not for Gorbachev trying to reform the system USSR would probably survived longer even with all it's problems. Though one could say that USSR was doomed since the inception and Gorbachev simply hastened the inevitable.

As for JP II in Poland too he is credited with influencing the events. He may have done some minuscule difference but in the end his "contribution" matters not despite religious people cries to the contrary.

[marom1963]

His "excellent" PR means that world see him as good guy. It hardly makes him powerful, just popular with naive people.

Wow. You convinced me. None of this means shit. Pope is popular with media but that does not mean that his words have some real influence on decision making of real players.

Even if it is really millions it only mean that pope is popular. Popular and influential are different things. Rocks stars are popular too.

You proved that pope is popular, that he is some kind of church rock star. Nothing you said points to him being influential. Also lot of man on earth care not about pope, whether you like it or not.

Face it pope is just a guy with good PR, he is Gorbachev but without his power and nuclear might and his back and call.

You act as though I'm defending the pope! I'm appalled at his popularity! I wish that I believed that the pope had no power - but he does. If he had none, nations would not have nuncios running around in their capitals and would not send ambassadors to his.

[Shukhov]

You act as though I'm defending the pope! I'm appalled at his popularity! I wish that I believed that the pope had no power - but he does. If he had none, nations would not have nuncios running around in their capitals and would not send ambassadors to his.

I ask again: what important decisions pope influenced? How his power shows? Countries sending ambassadors to Vatican do not mean much. In reality current pope has no more influence than late JP II who opposed war with Iraq. I don't remember Bush caring much about this.