Tough Guise - Issues MRA Should Actually Address

[PickelledEggs]

I took the time to watch the OP's  video in its entirety and while there were some good points made, especially in the first half, it didn't address several things that I think are critical to the subject of masculinity.  It didn't discuss the physical difference between men and women, to include hormonal differences and brain structure.  It didn't discuss the traditional masculine role of protector and provider.  It didn't discuss the need for a positive masculine role models in child rearing. The overall message of the video equated traditional masculinity with needless violence and that men needed to be more vulnerable and express their emotions better. 
While cleverly presented, this is feminist propaganda geared toward making men more feminine.  Sure, men need to be responsible and treat women, children and each other in a caring and respectful manner, but men need to also step up and be courageous, strong, competitive, and even violent when necessary. 

Can't say it better than Jack did.

[Baruch]

I have nothing against feminine men or masculine women but ... this:

"While cleverly presented, this is feminist propaganda geared toward making men more feminine.  Sure, men need to be responsible and treat women, children and each other in a caring and respectful manner, but men need to also step up and be courageous, strong, competitive, and even violent when necessary."

Men need to behave as gentlemen, not assholes.  Women need to behave a ladies, not bitches.  Apply whichever nice adjective to yourself, wherever you are on the gender spectrum.  Men don't need to become women (well most of us) and women don't need to become men (but maybe a few do).

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I don't see why holding a controversial opinion should stop you from voicing it. If everyone did that there would be nothing to talk about.

Because I'm convinced at this point that asking SJWs or MRAs to see reason is pointless. You'd have better luck convincing PR that the Muslims aren't hiding under his bed waiting to make him pray toward Mecca.

[Nonsensei]

Edit - doing this on my phone is a major pain in the ass, but no I don't think women do it remotely to the same extent because of personal experience and basic group dynamics and sociology.

And yet that is exactly what you are making it in your opening statements. You literally cannot address ANY men's issue without it coming down to, "but...but... Women! They are bad too!".

I think its absolutely critical to approach a discussion of any gender issue with the understanding that women are full human beings, with all the good and bad that goes with that. I really feel that whenever someone suggests that any sexism that originates from women is actually nothing more than the result of a male dominated society, as if men are dictating female opinions, that they are actually suggesting that women are practically a different species. As if, were men removed from the equation, women would get on just fine and all wars would end and nobody would be unhappy ever again. In addition to being laughably false, its also dehumanizing to suggest that women don't have access to the full range of thought processes, emotions and motivations that men do.

No gender has a monopoly on evil or negativity or promoting stereotypes. Its part of being human.

The fact of the matter that the pressures on men to "be men" are felt strongest from people within the same group as you. This is not just to do with sex, but a simple matter of group sociology... If you do not adhere to the norm, you face more pressure from within than from without. It is also more humiliating to let your group down.

What you say may be true, but its hardly the whole picture. For example, take female body image. Under your logic, the most pressure women feel about their body image comes from women. This may even be true, but why? What is the source of that pressure? Could it be because of male expectations?

"My body is more in line with the expectations and preferences of men than yours is, therefore you are inferior".

Thats essentially whats going on. The pressure is from within the group, but the basis for that pressure is not. Its the same with male expectations. Other men will pressure you into conforming, but the very source of those expectations is generated by women and adhered to by men because of the mating drive. Its natural for both genders to want to make themselves into what members of the opposite gender desire, and its also natural to hammer out a de facto pecking order based on who is best at meeting those desires.

The solution is not necessarily to get men to stop applying pressure inside the group based on the expectations of women, but to change the expectations of women.

And I can only speak from personal experience, but I have never had a woman harass me for not being manly enough. I have never had a group of women who don't even know me drive by and yell, "fucking die, you faggot!" because my body shape leans towards the "stereotypical" slender and wider hipped gay body. I have never had women pressure me to like certain things, to hide how I feel about others, because it wasn't "manly" enough. I was never beaten up when I was younger by women who thought I wasn't a normal boy. I can't say the same for men.

Heh. Women don't need to harass men for not being manly enough. They just need to refuse to give you the time of day.

Yes, women contribute to these things and I know they are out there, but that's because women are a part of society... A male centric society... And are taught that those things are not manly. But not being part of the in group the average woman is simply not as invested in putting men down like other men are.

It's like saying, "but men insult women too!" when addressing the judgment that goes on within female communities towards women who don't fit the average mold... It's a pointless statement that detracts from the main issue.

Like I said before, I think its critical to delve as far as we can into the origins of these pressures. You seem focused on the symptom, while I would rather focus on the source issue.

[PickelledEggs]

I have nothing against feminine men or masculine women but ... this:

"While cleverly presented, this is feminist propaganda geared toward making men more feminine.  Sure, men need to be responsible and treat women, children and each other in a caring and respectful manner, but men need to also step up and be courageous, strong, competitive, and even violent when necessary."

Men need to behave as gentlemen, not assholes.  Women need to behave a ladies, not bitches. Apply whichever nice adjective to yourself, wherever you are on the gender spectrum.  Men don't need to become women (well most of us) and women don't need to become men (but maybe a few do).

I would just simplify the part I bolded to: "People should act like adults..."

Fact is, men and women are different. Simple as that. We are very much the same... in many ways. We are both two complimentary parts to the same species, after all. But because this species contains both men AND women, people need to understand that we are not the same. We both have our own advantages and disadvantages to being the sex that we are. Because the fact is: men have different biological makeup than women (and obviously vice-versa) Men have more testosterone, in general, driving them to be more aggressive, for the most part. Women on the other hand have more hormones and a biological makeup to drive them to be more nurturing. It's not completely like that, but it is on a very consistent scale. Is society to blame for some of men's conditioning to be more agressive? Possibly, but how did society get like that in the first place? Why are boys drawn to violent things? (in a general scale) Why are women drawn to things having to do with nurturing more? (on a general scale). These are the things you need to think about...

If men and women were truly the same, then we wouldn't be men and women, we would be literally a one-sex gender. No men, no women. Kind of like that sea creature... Don't know the name of it off the top of my head... where they're both "male" until one gets stabed in a penis fencing match and one is impregnated and turns female WAIT. I found it The flatworm...

Should men and women have equal rights? Yes. Should men act like women and women act like men? Not any more than you or I should act like some random person down the street. Act like yourself, whoever that is.

[Shiranu]

Edit: I keep on using the word propaganda for lack of a better term... when I keep on using it I am referring to the agencies that establish cultural and sexual norms. There is probably a better word for that and I just don't know it.

I really feel that whenever someone suggests that any sexism that originates from women is actually nothing more than the result of a male dominated society...

No one has done this here...

...as if men are dictating female opinions, that they are actually suggesting that women are practically a different species.

...nor this.

What is suggested is that male dominated industries mold the propaganda that we see everyday on T.V., in movies, in magazines, on billboards, etc. that influence the ways of thinking within society, and society then propagates those opinions. I don't think you would deny that basically every form of communication, from television to movies to the fashion industry and so on, are overwhelmingly man-run.

Nor does saying women are susceptible to what they see in the world somehow mean I am saying they are some different species that cant think for themselves; propaganda, advertising, movies and the standards they establish effects men and women just the same, and it seems weird that you would try to twist that into an implication of something sexist. We know kids are influenced by what we see around them... I am not sure how many times I am going to have to repeat the word sociology and now psychology, but if you don't believe we are (to an extent) products of our environment then I recommend studying these two fields as well as travel outside of even your own state to see how vastly different cultures can be based on how the people around them raised them.

What you say may be true, but its hardly the whole picture. For example, take female body image. Under your logic, the most pressure women feel about their body image comes from women. This may even be true, but why? What is the source of that pressure? Could it be because of male expectations?

"My body is more in line with the expectations and preferences of men than yours is, therefore you are inferior".

You are only furthing my argument that, in a society where males control the propaganda, what men think of you is the key standard we hold people to. You just argued that it is sexist to imply women are not influenced by propaganda, and then agree that women are influenced by propaganda.

Its the same with male expectations. Other men will pressure you into conforming, but the very source of those expectations is generated by women and adhered to by men because of the mating drive.

Shortened: Women: "Be what we are told men want, or you are not a proper woman." Men: "Be what we think women want, or you are just as pathetic as a woman.". Those two are not equal.

Except it's not. Going by your example, women pressure other women to be what men want, yes. But that is not the pressure that men and boys place on one another, rather the pressure is rooted in, "You are not as manly as me, you are like a woman or a queer!". It is similar, but not the same. One is rooted in living up to the other genders standards, the other is living up to your own or else you are as pathetic as the other gender.

The solution is not necessarily to get men to stop applying pressure inside the group based on the expectations of women, but to change the expectations of women.

Again, how do you go about that if it is sexist to imply women don't make choices for themselves?

Heh. Women don't need to harass men for not being manly enough. They just need to refuse to give you the time of day.

Implying the only reason to bother interacting with women is for sex.

Like I said before, I think its critical to delve as far as we can into the origins of these pressures. You seem focused on the symptom, while I would rather focus on the source issue.

The thing is you don't have the symptoms correct, so how can you ever diagnose the sickness causing them?

[Nonsensei]

No one has done this here...

Actually you did, when you said this:

Yes, women contribute to these things and I know they are out there, but that's because women are a part of society... A male centric society

...nor this.

What is suggested is that male dominated industries mold the propaganda that we see everyday on T.V., in movies, in magazines, on billboards, etc. that influence the ways of thinking within society, and society then propagates those opinions. I don't think you would deny that basically every form of communication, from television to movies to the fashion industry and so on, are overwhelmingly man-run.

Nor does saying women are susceptible to what they see in the world somehow mean I am saying they are some different species that cant think for themselves; propaganda, advertising, movies and the standards they establish effects men and women just the same, and it seems weird that you would try to twist that into an implication of something sexist. We know kids are influenced by what we see around them... I am not sure how many times I am going to have to repeat the word sociology and now psychology, but if you don't believe we are (to an extent) products of our environment then I recommend studying these two fields as well as travel outside of even your own state to see how vastly different cultures can be based on how the people around them raised them.

I believe we are products of our environment but I don't think we are slaves to it. The problem with your theory is that it leaves no room for women to develop their own wants and expectations of men. In your scenario women are told what to want from men by men, and men are told what to want from women by men. Simply because the working population in the media industry at large is majority male. But its a whole new world, Shiranu, and that male majority is shrinking every year. Its not a male exclusive club anymore, if ever it was. When can we expect to see the effects of this?

I think you are attributing far, far too much power and importance to the media and, in doing so, you are essentially labeling EVERYONE as too dumb to know any better. As empty little sponges that just accept whatever is given to them.

Its nothing new for women to want fit, manly men. Its nothing new for women to be attracted to wealth, power, confidence etc. Its nothing new for men to want a woman who has a noticeably feminine body, the more noticeable the better. Its nothing new for men to want a sexually aware woman. How do you reconcile these ancient desires with the fact that the modern media has only existed in a form capable of reaching literally everyone for, at best, the last 100 years?

In other words, if a male dominated infrastructure that dictates to everyone what their expectations are of the opposite sex wasn't around back then, what was doing it and why are the major themes in sexual attraction largely unchanged?

You are only furthing my argument that, in a society where males control the propaganda, what men think of you is the key standard we hold people to. You just argued that it is sexist to imply women are not influenced by propaganda, and then agree that women are influenced by propaganda.

The only reason you can even say that with a straight face is because you split my complete thought in two and addressed each incomplete piece separately to make it appear as if I was saying something I wasn't actually saying.

Shortened: Women: "Be what we are told men want, or you are not a proper woman." Men: "Be what we think women want, or you are just as pathetic as a woman.". Those two are not equal.

I think its probably best if you don't shorten people's arguments from this point forward. You have a terrible tendency to change the argument into something you can more effectively refute.

If you really must shorten it it would actually look like this. "Women: "Be what we are told men want, or you are not a proper woman." Men: "Be what we are told women want, or you are not a proper man." That IS equal. Equally shitty.

Again, how do you go about that if it is sexist to imply women don't make choices for themselves?

Education? A discussion of the issues? Its entirely possible to arrive at your own conclusions and be in the wrong about part of all of that conclusion. How do we correct disparity in other areas? We discuss it, try to spread awareness.

Implying the only reason to bother interacting with women is for sex.

LOL are you kidding? Women don't harass men because they don't need to harass men. They simply have to refuse to acknowledge them as being worth anything, whether that be in the area of romance or any other area. Of course, men can do the same thing to women.

The thing is you don't have the symptoms correct, so how can you ever diagnose the sickness causing them?

Right back at you.

[Shiranu]

Actually you did, when you said this:

And that quote does not correlate to what you said, so okay. Whatever then.

When can we expect to see the effects of this?

By answering this, I think it answers the majority of what you said... when? We already have, which I think is compelling evidence that it was and is a major factor.

Its nothing new for women to want fit, manly men. Its nothing new for women to be attracted to wealth, power, confidence etc. Its nothing new for men to want a woman who has a noticeably feminine body, the more noticeable the better. Its nothing new for men to want a sexually aware woman. How do you reconcile these ancient desires with the fact that the modern media has only existed in a form capable of reaching literally everyone for, at best, the last 100 years?

I disagree that it is nothing new. "Attractive" as a criteria for hooking up with a woman is something that has only been a concept for less than 200 years, with historically the social union between two people being an economic or political tool rather than a romance tool. That's not to say people didn't do it for pleasures sake, but for the culturally accepted union between two people how "fit" a person looked was utterly irrelevant so long as she could shoot out children or her family owned some nice land, or that he had a steady job and could provide. So what if he wasn't prince charming?

In terms of what society thought, looks were "meh" tier on judging a woman or a man. What mattered was his prestige, her lineage, what two families could trade amongst each other.

If you really must shorten it it would actually look like this. "Women: "Be what we are told men want, or you are not a proper woman." Men: "Be what we are told women want, or you are not a proper man." That IS equal. Equally shitty.

I will agree that is equal.

I will also say that it's equality is irrelevant, because it is inaccurate.

-There is an implication in most insults against males from males who don't fit the norm that you are "womanly" and lesser for it, or queer, because you don't fit the mold of a proper man. The male insult is that you are of a "lesser" entity, a woman.
-The implication amongst women is rather you do not fit what is expect of you, so you are just a loser. The common insult is not stigmatization that, "Oh, you are like a man, you are pathetic!" but rather, "You are a bitch, a whore, etc. etc.". That is the major difference; one uses the opposite sex as an insult, the other uses more abstract concepts as an insult.

LOL are you kidding? Women don't harass men because they don't need to harass men. They simply have to refuse to acknowledge them as being worth anything, whether that be in the area of romance or any other area. Of course, men can do the same thing to women.

So... basically this entire train of thought was a pointless track that lead to the inevitable, "But... but... women are terrible too!".

Is it literally impossible to address issues within the male community with out it boiling down to, "But women...!!!"?

That has absolutely zero to do with the fact that women do not generally put down men for being non-masculine. Women do not refuse to have social interactions with a man because he does not fit his gender role. Women do not generally insult a man by insulating that he is a "woman". The only field it effects a man is in his chances of getting fucked, which is irrelevant to gay men who face this type of harassment or straight men who don't have to view every woman as something to be fucked and left.

And the fact that I have had to spend more time talking about women then men when addressing issues facing men within the male community just goes to show how insecure our culture has us feeling about our own masculinity that we have to bring up everyone else's problems before we can address our own.

[Baruch]

My favorite is the fish that changes sex.  If there are too many males, a few spontaneously change to female ... and vice versa.  This is with a vertebrate not a worm  Earthworms are unisex.  They can't do themselves, but they can do any other earthworm.

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/22/7-gender-bending-animals/

[pr126]

Really man? On top of everything else, you also want to be a grammar nazi?

If it is not important, why waste money and time on education?

[Baruch]

If it is not important, why waste money and time on education?

Education is only for the elite ... proles and peasants don't need it.  They just need obedience.