Syria conflict: Turkey shells Kurdish militia

[drunkenshoe]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35571663

Turkey has shelled a Kurdish militia in northern Syria and demanded it retreat from territory it has seized, Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said.
The US urged Turkey to stop the shelling and focus on fighting the group Islamic State (IS).
Meanwhile Turkey's foreign minister said Turkey was mulling a ground invasion of Syria with Saudi forces.
On Thursday world powers agreed to push for a cessation of hostilities in Syria within a week.
Among the targets shelled by Turkey was the Menagh airbase, which was seized on Thursday from Syrian Islamist rebels by a Kurdish militia group known as the YPG.
Speaking on Turkish TV, PM Davutoglu warned that Turkey would retaliate if the YPG did not leave the airbase, which lies south of the town of Azaz and near the Turkish border.

Turkey sees the YPG as being linked with Kurdish guerrillas from the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which has waged a campaign against security forces in Turkey itself for decades.
Mr Davutoglu accused the Kurdish militiamen of attacking ethnic Arabs and Turkmen in what amounted to "war crimes".
US State Department spokesman John Kirby also urged the YPG not to "take advantage of a confused situation" by seizing new territory.
Mr Kirby said Turkey and the YPG were both threatened by IS, whose fighters were located to the east of Azaz.
"We continue to encourage all parties to focus on this common threat, which has not subsided," he said.

On Saturday, Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said it was possible that troops from his country and Saudi Arabia might participate in a ground operation against IS forces.
Saudi Arabia will send war planes to the Turkish airbase of Incirlik to carry out air strikes on IS militants, Mr Cavusoglu said.
The US has so far ruled out a ground invasion of Syria, while Moscow has warned against such a development, saying it could lead to a world war.
World powers have instead agreed a tentative deal to try to bring about a cessation of hostilities and allow more access for humanitarian aid.

Under the plan, efforts will be made to try to make urgent aid deliveries to besieged and hard-to-reach areas in Syria. Steps will also be taken to work towards an eventual ceasefire and implementation of a UN-backed plan for political transition in Syria.
The halt would not apply to the battle against jihadist groups IS and al-Nusra Front.
However, neither the Syrian government nor the rebels were involved in the deal and both have since vowed to continue fighting.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad said on Friday that he intended to retake "the whole country" from rebels.

Russia accused
Syrian government forces, backed by Russian air strikes, have almost encircled rebels in parts of the northern city of Aleppo.
However, Russia has come under pressure from Western countries over civilian deaths in Syria, with France and the US urging greater caution.




French PM Manuel Valls and US Secretary of State John Kerry said civilians were dying in Russian air strikes.
One observers' group says at least 1,015 civilians have been killed in Russian air strikes.
Russia, an ally of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, has consistently denied hitting civilian targets and insists it is battling terrorists.
More than 250,000 people have been killed and some 11 million displaced in almost five years of fighting in Syria.

[Baruch]

This seems, since the original Arab Spring, to be a secret security state operation by many participants.  Kind of like WW I, but fought with special forces and irregular fighters.  I doubt any history book will reveal what is really going on now, even a generation from now.  Unfortunately a war by attrition, fought in a way that excludes the public from any real political participation.  Truth is the first casualty in war.  There may be no T E Lawrence to romanticize it.

I wish the ME peoples well, but being a desert version of the Vietnam war/Korean war ... as pawns of greater states/alliances isn't a good position to be in.  Proxy pre-WW III.  Weapons systems need to be tested and debugged on live targets.

[drunkenshoe]

We are getting into war.

[kilodelta]

Saudi Arabia is supposed to be jumping in too...

[SGOS]

I've wondered why it seems that everyone in the ME hates the Kurds.  Usually, there is some reason for the bias given, as empty or as true it might be, but I've never heard what the general Middle East complaints are about the Kurds.  I get the impression the Kurds are not a large Majority as far as the whole Middle East is concerned, but it seems like they are constantly being targeted by one government or another.  What are the usual reasons for targeting the Kurds?

[Baruch]

It is a great tragedy ... war.  Gandhi said that the Earth is enough to provide for everyone's need, but not enough to provide for everyone's greed.  When push comes to shove, over limited resources sought out by unlimited egos ... the public must be lied into war.

“Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the 
leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a
 simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a
 fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
  Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
 the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
 being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
 for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every
 country.”
--- Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg
Trials after World War II.

Other than as a purely defensive posture, I don't support war, including America's overly aggressive tendencies first in Vietnam, and later in the ME.

[Baruch]

I've wondered why it seems that everyone in the ME hates the Kurds.  Usually, there is some reason for the bias given, as empty or as true it might be, but I've never heard what the general Middle East complaints are about the Kurds.  I get the impression the Kurds are not a large Majority as far as the whole Middle East is concerned, but it seems like they are constantly being targeted by one government or another.  What are the usual reasons for targeting the Kurds?

They are an ancient mountain people in everyone else's way.  They straddle the Turkish, Iraqi and Iranian borders.  So they are a minority in three countries, without a country of their own.  Since 1900, it has been Turkish policy to eliminate ethnic minorities when possible.  Iraq, Iran and Turkey see them as rebels, with the potential of messing up everyone's plans, if they get their own state.  Technically they should control the oil in N Iraq, except Saddam stole it from them.  Iran is less racist, but authoritarian in a way that Turkey would like to be.  Iraqi Arabs, both Sunni and Shia consider them alien, but can tolerate them as long as Baghdad gets all the oil, to provide largess to the Arabs at Kurdish expense.  Kurdish women fighters in present times ... are offensive to the Arabs et al.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/angels-death-isis-savages-fear-6275913

The only good misogynist, is a dead misogynist ;-)

[drunkenshoe]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/02/saudi-fighter-jets-deployed-turkey-incirlik-base-160214045639093.html

Saudi fighter jets deployed to Turkey's Incirlik base

Turkish official confirms aircraft have arrived in Turkey to target ISIL with air strikes.

Saudi Arabia has sent warplanes to NATO-member Turkey's Incirlik air base for the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group, according to a Turkish official.

Turkish MP Yasin Aktay told Al Jazeera that Saudi warplanes will act together with the coalition forces in the fight against the ISIL.

"They will be acting with the coalition. It is not common for countries to act individually in these situations in terms of international legitimacy," Yasin Aktay said.

Syria: Russia warns of world war if troops sent in

Saudi Arabia has resumed its participation in air strikes against ISIL in recent weeks and US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter on Thursday welcomed its commitment to expand its role.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu told the Yeni Safak newspaper on Saturday that Saudi Arabia had carried out inspections at the air base in preparation to sending aircraft.

Earlier this month, Riyadh said it is prepared to deploy ground troops to Syria to fight ISIL if US-led coalition leaders agree to the offer.

Russia warned last week that foreign troops sent into the nearly five-year Syrian conflict could ignite a world war.

[drunkenshoe]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-14/road-world-war-iii-turkey-shells-syria-second-day-saudi-warplanes-arrive

On Saturday, the geopolitical world was shocked when Turkey began shelling Aleppo, where the Syrian opposition has its back against the wall in the face of an aggressive advance by Hezbollah and the IRGC supported, of course, by Russian airstrikes.

To be sure, everyone knew Ankara and Riyadh would have to do something quick if they wanted to preserve the rebellion. Their proxies are being rolled up rapidly by Hassan Nasrallah’s army and Vladimir Putin’s air force juggernaut. But few expected the escalation would come so quickly.

But Recep Tayyip Erdogan is unpredictable (just ask the lone surviving pilot of the Su-24 Turkey shot down in November) and this weekend, he decided that there’s no time like the present when it comes to starting World War III.

Officially, Turkey says it’s shelling Kurdish positions in Syria in self defense. It’s all about securing the border against hostiles, Ankara says. Of course the idea that the YPG are set to invade Turkey is laughable. The Syrian Kurds have secured enough space in their own country to declare an autonomous proto-state, and they needn’t aspire to capturing Turkish territory.

But for Erdogan, that’s precisely the problem. Ankara fears the YPG’s gains will embolden the PKK militarily and the HDP politically and last June’s elections clearly suggest that an emboldened Kurdish minority has the power to shake up the political scene.

And so, Turkey is set to take the fight to Syria in the name of fighting “terrorists”, which for Erdogan, means eradicating the Kurds. As we noted on Saturday, the challenge for Ankara and Riyadh is this: somehow, Turkey and Saudi Arabia need to figure out how to spin an attack on the YPG and an effort to rescue the opposition at Aleppo as an anti-ISIS operation even though ISIS doesn’t have a large presence in the area.

Incredibly, Turkey seems less concerned about the optics than we thought. In short, Erdogan looks as though he’s prepared to simply enter the war on the pretext that Turkey needs to roll back the YPG which, you’re reminded is explicitly backed by the US.

In a way that makes sense. You can’t very well shell Aleppo and use ISIS as an excuse. The group’s presence isn’t large enough in the area. But what you can do is say “the PKK are terrorists, they’re allied with the YPG who are in Aleppo, and therefore, we need to shell Aleppo.” Put in the simplest possible terms, what Erdogan is really doing is trying to reopen supply lines closed by Russia and Iran by wiping out Kurdish forces who dominate the northern border with Turkey.


The shelling continued on Sunday. "The Turkish army shelled positions held by Kurdish-backed militia in northern Syria for a second day on Sunday, killing two fighters," Reuters reports, citing the admittedly dubious Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. The YPG controls nearly all of Syria's northern frontier with Turkey, and has been a close ally of the United States in the campaign against Islamic State in Syria, but Ankara views the group as an extension of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which has waged a three-decade-old insurgency for autonomy in southeast Turkey."

Jaysh al-Thuwwar, an allied group warned Turkey against further attacks, saying if the country "has goals in our dear nation, we will defend our land and our people, and view it as a hostile party". Again, this comes from the very same groups the US is overtly supporting with arms and air power. So not the CIA-sponsored opposition. Turkey is shelling fighters who literally have the clearance to call in US airstrikes from warplanes that, in an irony of ironies, are flying from Incirlik, the Turkish air base.

And speaking of Incirlik, the Saudis are moving into position.

They're also conducting "exercises" dubbed "North Thunder" or, "Road North." Here's SPA (translated):

Witnessing the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia during the next few hours the arrival of troops participating in the military exercise largest and most important in the history of the region, "Raad north," In the King Khalid Military City Hafr al-Batin in the northern kingdom will be implemented exercise which is the largest military maneuver in terms of the number of countries, with the participation of 20 Arab, Islamic and friendly country, in addition to the Peninsula shield forces, and these countries are: Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Bahrain, Senegal, Sudan, Kuwait, Maldives, Morocco , Pakistan, Chad, Tunisia, the moon, Djibouti, Oman, Qatar, Malaysia, Egypt, Mauritania, Mauritius, in addition to the Peninsula shield forces. Islands constitute Raad north, the largest military exercise of its kind in terms of the number of participating countries, and military equipment quality of weapons and military equipment diverse and sophisticated, including fighter jets from different models reflect the large quantitative and qualitative spectrum, which show him those forces, as well as the participation of a wide range of artillery and tanks, infantry and air defense systems, naval forces, in a simulation of the highest level of high alert for the armies of the countries 20 participation.

Exercise Raad North represents a clear message to the Saudi brothers and brothers and friends of the participating countries stand united to face all challenges and to maintain peace and stability in the region, in addition to the emphasis on many of the goals, all in full readiness circle and maintain the peace and security of the region and the world .

Analysts say that the exercise Raad North confirms that the leaders of the participating countries, are fully in line with the vision of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in the need to protect the peace and stability in the region.
A lot of words to say this: "We're flexing our muscles on the way to invading Syria."

"What is present now is aircraft that are part of the Saudi forces," Brigadier General Ahmed al-Asiri told Al Arabiya News Channel on Sunday, referencing the Saudi presence at Incirlik. "The kingdom is ready to participate in any ground operations that the coalition (against ISIS) may agree to carry out in Syria," he added.

Remember, Turkey also shelled the Syrian army on Saturday.

“Turkish artillery shelled Syrian territory, targeting Syrian Kurdish positions and the positions of the Syrian Arab Army,” SANA news agency reported, citing a letter from Damascus to the UN. Expect those attacks to continue in the name of "self defense."

Meanwhile, the Russians aren't letting up. Aleppo will be recaptured and that, as they say, is that. "Russia is determined to create facts on the ground, and when they have accomplished this, then they will invite the West to fight a common enemy, this is ISIS," Norbert Roettgen, head of the foreign affairs committee in the German parliament says, underscoring our contention that Russia is determined to negotiate from a position of absolute strength. "Let's be clear about what this agreement does. It allows Russia's assault on Aleppo to continue for another week," John McCain exclaimed. "Mr Putin is not interested in being our partner. He wants to shore up the Assad regime, he wants to establish Russia as a major power in the Middle East, he wants to use Syria as a live fire exercise for Russia’s modernizing military."

Right. And America is seemingly powerless to stop him.

In the short term, the only question now is this: how long will it be before Turkey or Saudi Arabia kills a Hezbollah fighter or an IRGC general?

Or worse: what happens when a Russian ends up dead at the hands of the region's Sunni powers?

[Baruch]

Probably just Saudis making good on previous threats:
https://consortiumnews.com/2013/12/31/the-russian-saudi-showdown-at-sochi/

The Saudis keep escalating, trying to put a horse's head in Putin's bed.  Give the Russians an offer they can't refuse.  Putin should remember to check the men's bathroom for hidden guns ;-(

[SGOS]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/angels-death-isis-savages-fear-6275913

Your link, while it doesn't answer all my questions, is a highly interesting piece of information.

But beyond that, I'm seeing bit of parallel between fear and oppression of the Kurds with the Israeli fear and oppression of the Palestinians:  "The audacity of a minority wanting back that which they believe to be their stuff."  It seems to be a common but deadly thread of conflict that runs through the collective psyche of mankind.

Also, thanks to Drunkenshoe for further information on the topic.  It's helpful in understanding a conflict which I have never satisfactorily understood.

[Baruch]

This goes back to ancient times.  The Armenians/Kurds are in the mountains between E Turkey and W Iran.  This is contested ground, for 2000 years ... first between Rome and Parthia (Persia).  It is no wonder that the Armenians/Kurds want nothing to do with their neighbors?

[drunkenshoe]

If you can sympathise with a Kurdish suicide bomber, you shouldn't find it hard to sympathise with an ISIL suicide bomber. You don't just call one an extremist and the other a 'freedom fighter' because you feel like it. I'm not buying that shit anymore.  I don't believe anything that comes up in the news. Nobody knows what is happening in the area is the truth.

All I care about is the civilians, the rest can go fuck themselves. 

[Baruch]

Not being pro-Kurd or pro-Palestinian.  But the fate of small powers caught between greater powers, isn't something a Jew can't ignore ;-(  And it makes supporting modern Israel that much harder, since they are too militant ... just as some Palestinian and Kurdish actors are.

Suicide bombers who attack civilians ... of course that is bad.  And I don't think asymmetrical warfare theory justifies it either.  Even for major powers, it is a gray area.  Bombs were inaccurate in WW II, but the British enjoyed killing German civilians, just as Americans enjoyed killing Japanese civilians.  There are no good-guys in warfare, just survivors.  If we could just keep warfare to offing opposing leaders ... that might be OK ;-)

[drunkenshoe]

But the fate of small powers caught between greater powers, isn't something a Jew can't ignore

I do not need to be a Jew to feel/think that.