Church of England his milestone in low attendance.

[Unbeliever]

And far less tolerant of atheism than Christians have been.

You mean less tolerant than Christianity has been in the last 10 or 12 decades or so? Before that tolerance wasn't even in the vocabulary of Christians.

[widdershins]

.                                                                                                                                                  What the hell you are smoking?  There is a huge problem in Europe. Christianity dying in Europe is great news. But Islam taking over Europe is  a very very horrible news.  This means the return of dark ages in Europe. And Islam wouldn't gone in Europe for a several centuries atleast. It's a very shitty scenario in Europe. The Europe future is very dark.

I really don't think hard-line Islam is going to live very long anywhere in a civilized society.  The soft-core stuff isn't much worse than Christianity.  It's not like they move caves and huts to Europe and still burn shit for light and heat.  They integrate with society, albeit slowly at first.  There are no greater threats to religion, especially hard-line religion than information and diversity.  You move barbarians to civilized societies and they're going to stop being barbarians, and that will not take several centuries.

[leo]

I really don't think hard-line Islam is going to live very long anywhere in a civilized society.  The soft-core stuff isn't much worse than Christianity.  It's not like they move caves and huts to Europe and still burn shit for light and heat.  They integrate with society, albeit slowly at first.  There are no greater threats to religion, especially hard-line religion than information and diversity.  You move barbarians to civilized societies and they're going to stop being barbarians, and that will not take several centuries.

.                                                                                                                                                  Meh , when Europe is ruled by Islam , the sharia law with dictate the society and culture of that continent. You are too optimistic. Islam will match Christianity in number of believers  by 2050 and by 2100 it will be the world largest religion. Islam will eventually decline like all world big religions but Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. The decline of Islam will happen in several centuries. Islam is in their peak righ now.  Present Islam is comparable with mediaval Christianity in brutality and violence.

[Youssuf Ramadan]

I really don't think hard-line Islam is going to live very long anywhere in a civilized society.  The soft-core stuff isn't much worse than Christianity.  It's not like they move caves and huts to Europe and still burn shit for light and heat.  They integrate with society, albeit slowly at first.  There are no greater threats to religion, especially hard-line religion than information and diversity.  You move barbarians to civilized societies and they're going to stop being barbarians, and that will not take several centuries.

This. Islam for the most part tends to become more dilute as it moves away from the origin.  Yes, there's always wingnuts who want to go back to the iron age, and they need to be weeded out and disposed of.  It bears mentioning that we didn't really have that much fundamentalist islamist crap until we started bombing the shit out of Arab countries to get the oil, removing the more 'secular-ish' dictators that we put there in the first place, leaving a power vacuum for the headcases who we funded like the mujahedeen/Taliban/Daesh, whoever the fuck etc. in order to create a shitstorm in the middle east so we could sell the idea of bombing more crap out of them to our public, while getting into a nice cosy bed and spooning with Saudi Arabia, the human rights clusterfuck and home of the Wahhabi/Salafist ideology that is at the core of much of the Islamic terrorism.  Rinse and repeat....

Back on topic, I don't lament the decline of the CofE - there's some good laser-tag venues to be had there. 

[Randy Carson]

.                                                                                                                                                  What the hell you are smoking?  There is a huge problem in Europe. Christianity dying in Europe is great news. But Islam taking over Europe is  a very very horrible news.  This means the return of dark ages in Europe. And Islam wouldn't gone in Europe for a several centuries atleast. It's a very shitty scenario in Europe. The Europe future is very dark.

And what saved Europe from Islam in the 16th century?

Christianity.

You're on your own this time.

[Baruch]

MLK said something like ... if there isn't something you are willing to die for, you aren't really alive.  Is there anything Europe is willing to die for?  Irony of course, they have been trying for millennia to find fewer things to die for.  Will a secular Europe die for the latest 5 year plan out of Brussels?  There is a problem with being excessively civilized ... Americans don't have that problem.  The Europeans should have imported Russians, who retained their USSR atheism, not Orthodox Church revanchists.  And certainly importing fundie Muslims ... is spectacularly ... a Darwin Award.

[Hydra009]

And what saved Europe from Islam in the 16th century?

Christianity.

A whole host of scientific/economic/military advances heralding the "European miracle" might've also helped.  But yeah, Europeans being super pious really helped turn the tide.

[Baruch]

A whole host of scientific/economic/military advances heralding the "European miracle" might've also helped.  But yeah, Europeans being super pious really helped turn the tide.

The Polish army saved the German's behind at Vienna in the late 17th century, against the whole Ottoman host.  The Germans later repaid the Poles with interest ;-(.  Basically the Catholics took the brunt of the Islamic attacks, while also trying to fight the Protestants ;-)

[Randy Carson]

A whole host of scientific/economic/military advances heralding the "European miracle" might've also helped.  But yeah, Europeans being super pious really helped turn the tide.

Not even close.

Google "Battle of Lepanto".

[Hydra009]

Ya got me.  Advances in technology and economics had nothing to do with that battle or with the rise of the West and the decline of the Ottoman Empire.  It was all God doing that.

[Baruch]

It was the sustained development of technology in the West, from 1500 forward, that created the disparity between the West and Islam by the 19th century ... that an industrialization in the 19th century.  In 1500 the West had no technical advantage.  One can blame all modernity on Leonardo if one wishes, but his ideas remained secret until modern times.  Technology was tied to the craft guilds until the mid 19th century ... science had little to do with it.  Watt's steam engine had no scientific explanation until then, they just knew it worked, by experience.  Thermodynamics was still quite primitive in 1800.

[Randy Carson]

Ya got me.  Advances in technology and economics had nothing to do with that battle or with the rise of the West and the decline of the Ottoman Empire.  It was all God doing that.

Oh, I get it.

You're attempting humor and/or sarcasm (but simply coming off as obtuse).

[josephpalazzo]

Ya got me.  Advances in technology and economics had nothing to do with that battle or with the rise of the West and the decline of the Ottoman Empire.  It was all God doing that.

This reminded me of my visit in Venice where I saw a painting of the battle of Lepanto. The picture below does not do it justice as it is 40 feet wide by 15 feet high. The details are just amazing.

[Baruch]

The Ottomans were liberal on military technology ... particularly cannon.  But the Battle of Lepanto was one of several narrow checks against Ottoman expansion ... the Siege of Malta and the several sieges of Vienna were also crucial.

[LittleNipper]

People cannot spread what they fail to believe. If one is not excited with regard to salvation, how on earth can they excite those around them? The Church of England is simply not "Christian." And it has lost the power of being an arm of the State it once was. Like the Aristocracy, it is no longer viable. 

None of this is to say that Christianity is not true or unimportant for the survival of a nation. It simply means that if one doesn't believe in it or follow it honestly, one cannot expect others to jump on the wagon...