Women, Combat, and the Draft

[Hydra009]

That and the fact that while a shortage of young men won't necessarily impact the birth rate, a shortage of young women is the quickest way to induce a population bust. Just ask China...

Oh really?  In the US, around 1% of the population serves in the military.  Even assuming that women in the military don't have kids, that's not much of a difference and certainly not enough to induce a population bust.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Oh really?  In the US, around 1% of the population serves in the military.  Even assuming that women in the military don't have kids, that's not much of a difference and certainly not enough to induce a population bust.

Was talking about a universal draft when I said that. Obviously an all-volunteer force is not going to cause that problem.

[TomFoolery]

Was talking about a universal draft when I said that. Obviously an all-volunteer force is not going to cause that problem.

But less than 25% of all military-aged youths 18-25 (male and female) are capable of serving in the military due to medical or moral reasons.
http://cdn.missionreadiness.org/NATEE1109.pdf

In Vietnam, less than 10% of the military-aged male population was serving in Vietnam, and less than 25% of all troops among those were drafted during the period from 1965-1973.
http://www.nationalvietnamveteransfoundation.org/statistics.htm

Registering for the draft is not the same thing as being drafted. Currently even blind men and men in wheelchairs have to register, and if and when a draft was instituted they would almost certainly be refused for service. If things were bad enough that they were drafting blind guys, well, I think replacing our population is the least of our worries. Congress sets the rules for the draft, and gives deferments for all number of things. Donald Trump got several of them because he was a student.

If the argument that women shouldn't be drafted because of the "think of the children, who will raise them" argument, 1. That must feel like a slap in the face to single fathers 2. Wars aren't fought only by childless people 3. Single parents are currently ineligible from enlisting anyway and 4. If someone becomes a single parent while on active duty, they are either separated from service or required to adopt a family care plan at their own expense outlining who will care for their child while they are away at training or on deployment.

[Baruch]

One could still have universal service, putting 25% into uniform in the military, and 75% into the Americorp.  The handicapped could be put to work helping the handicapped in handicapped centers ... like the folks who were shot up in San Bernardino.  It could be more of a combat to be in Americorp than being deployed to the Middle East.  And we could mandate voting like they do in Australia ... this is to enhance citizenship ... no free riders ... you must serve, you must vote, you must pay taxes.  But then this would spoil to party for silver spoons like Trump.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

But less than 25% of all military-aged youths 18-25 (male and female) are capable of serving in the military due to medical or moral reasons.
http://cdn.missionreadiness.org/NATEE1109.pdf

In Vietnam, less than 10% of the military-aged male population was serving in Vietnam, and less than 25% of all troops among those were drafted during the period from 1965-1973.
http://www.nationalvietnamveteransfoundation.org/statistics.htm

Registering for the draft is not the same thing as being drafted. Currently even blind men and men in wheelchairs have to register, and if and when a draft was instituted they would almost certainly be refused for service. If things were bad enough that they were drafting blind guys, well, I think replacing our population is the least of our worries. Congress sets the rules for the draft, and gives deferments for all number of things. Donald Trump got several of them because he was a student.

If the argument that women shouldn't be drafted because of the "think of the children, who will raise them" argument, 1. That must feel like a slap in the face to single fathers 2. Wars aren't fought only by childless people 3. Single parents are currently ineligible from enlisting anyway and 4. If someone becomes a single parent while on active duty, they are either separated from service or required to adopt a family care plan at their own expense outlining who will care for their child while they are away at training or on deployment.

I stand corrected.


Secretly a Warsie.

[Jack89]

One could still have universal service, putting 25% into uniform in the military, and 75% into the Americorp.  The handicapped could be put to work helping the handicapped in handicapped centers ... like the folks who were shot up in San Bernardino.  It could be more of a combat to be in Americorp than being deployed to the Middle East.  And we could mandate voting like they do in Australia ... this is to enhance citizenship ... no free riders ... you must serve, you must vote, you must pay taxes.  But then this would spoil to party for silver spoons like Trump.

Whenever you try to make people do something against their will, it tends to turn out badly.  If you want to be authoritarian about it, you gotta go Heinlein style and dangle a carrot.  Make federal service, Military or AmeriCorp, completely voluntary, with citizenship as the reward for service.  If you don't serve, you're a civilian with all the rights of a citizen, with the exception of the right to vote or run for political office.  Everyone of sound mind can serve if they so desire, no matter physical handicaps.  The government will find you something to do for the 2 years of service. 

[Baruch]

Whenever you try to make people do something against their will, it tends to turn out badly.  If you want to be authoritarian about it, you gotta go Heinlein style and dangle a carrot.  Make federal service, Military or AmeriCorp, completely voluntary, with citizenship as the reward for service.  If you don't serve, you're a civilian with all the rights of a citizen, with the exception of the right to vote or run for political office.  Everyone of sound mind can serve if they so desire, no matter physical handicaps.  The government will find you something to do for the 2 years of service.

What do you think the US is?  Europe! <sarc>  We love our authoritarianism ;-(  The whole world, aside from Denmark, isn't like Denmark.

[Jack89]

What do you think the US is?  Europe! <sarc>  We love our authoritarianism ;-(  The whole world, aside from Denmark, isn't like Denmark.

My point is that conscription is a bad idea.  It's akin to slavery and makes for poor soldiers.  If you want or need to play the authoritarian card, do it in a manner where people want to serve.  Use patriotism, nationalism, religion, or the 'be a man" rhetoric to motivate people to do what needs to be done, or what you think needs to be done.  It works much better. 

"Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it." â€" Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Baruch]

My point is that conscription is a bad idea.  It's akin to slavery and makes for poor soldiers.  If you want or need to play the authoritarian card, do it in a manner where people want to serve.  Use patriotism, nationalism, religion, or the 'be a man" rhetoric to motivate people to do what needs to be done, or what you think needs to be done.  It works much better. 

"Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it." â€" Dwight D. Eisenhower

But people don't volunteer because they are lazy shits.  Thus authoritarianism arises so that can be corrected ;-)  It comes down to self discipline or external discipline.  In the US we have very little self discipline ... self indulgent consumer trash.  This is why we ... balance ... with an unconscious need for authoritarianism ... this is why people like Trump ... and why people who are die hard Obama supporters love our warmongering Peace Prize winner.  PS - Eisenhower supported the draft.  He was speaking of how to motivate ... draftees.

[Mike Cl]

Just make serving in combat units ... according to an objective physical and mental requirement.  Then sex doesn't matter.  The real problem is the ever higher probability of rape, of mostly women in uniform, in any unit they serve in.  Some units don't require you to do a 20 mile hike ... have lower physical and mental requirements there.  The idea that every unit should be able to serve as infantrymen in combat ... is nuts.  Will never happen, since very few people both before, and especially after combat, are fit to serve in the most difficult positions.  But a butch woman can beat a timid man any day.

I would think that a trained woman could beat an untrained man.  Women have served in combat forever.  Since they are part of society, they should serve in every capacity.  And the draft should be reinstated now.  That way, all levels of society would have to serve--when some of the rich and famous lose sons and daughters to our current stupid and criminal wars, maybe something will be done about that. 

[Jack89]

But people don't volunteer because they are lazy shits.  Thus authoritarianism arises so that can be corrected ;-)  It comes down to self discipline or external discipline.  In the US we have very little self discipline ... self indulgent consumer trash.  This is why we ... balance ... with an unconscious need for authoritarianism ... this is why people like Trump ... and why people who are die hard Obama supporters love our warmongering Peace Prize winner.  PS - Eisenhower supported the draft.  He was speaking of how to motivate ... draftees.

The U.S. draft ended in 1973 and we were still able to deploy 2.5 million members of the American military to Iraq and Afghanistan.  Apparently not all Americans are lazy shits.  And while I respect all those who've served, I think there is little doubt that the caiber of soldiers in a volunteer force is quite a bit better that that of a mixed volunteer/conscription force.  Because of this, I wonder if there would have been more U.S. casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan if we had sent conscripts instead of volunteers.  I'm thinking there would have been. 
The downside of an all volunteer force is that you do have a smaller pool to work from which result in troops serving multiple tours in combat zones.  2, 3, and even 5 tours in some cases.  Still, this is probably better than rotating in unseasoned conscripted troops every 6 months to a year like they did in Vietnam. 

I will agree with you, though, that there is considerably less self discipline in the US nowadays.  I suspect it has something to do with convincing people they're victims and that they're not responsible for themselves.  Self pity is a lot easier that personal responsibility.

[Baruch]

I would think that a trained woman could beat an untrained man.  Women have served in combat forever.  Since they are part of society, they should serve in every capacity.  And the draft should be reinstated now.  That way, all levels of society would have to serve--when some of the rich and famous lose sons and daughters to our current stupid and criminal wars, maybe something will be done about that.

But anterior motives.  I think an actual registration and call up of young women, would encourage a peaceful foreign policy.

My comments regarding Millennials is deliberately provocative.  I work with these people every day, and the volunteers are great Americans.  But you can't defend the US with 1% of the young adults.  Also the training/rotating in Vietnam was entirely stupid ... not a good example.  WW II is a good example ... but then you have to take war seriously ... not as an opportunity for the MIC to make money.  The draft in the Vietnam period ... was designed to kill young Black men.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I fought women back in the early '70s. Their bullets worked just like the guys'. One of my friends from back then emailed me to complain about this.

"There are thing the men can do that women can't!"

"Yeah, and there are things women can do that you can't!"

"Name one!!!"

"Think."

[Baruch]

I fought women back in the early '70s. Their bullets worked just like the guys'. One of my friends from back then emailed me to complain about this.

"There are thing the men can do that women can't!"

"Yeah, and there are things women can do that you can't!"

"Name one!!!"

"Think."

Also gentlemen can't shoot back.  This gives the women an unfair advantage ;-)

[Mike Cl]

Also gentlemen can't shoot back.  This gives the women an unfair advantage ;-)

The only 'gentle'men in combat are the dead ones.