Women, Combat, and the Draft

[TomFoolery]

Yesterday the U.S. military finally opened all jobs to women. While most specialties had been available for a long period of time, occupations such as infantry, artillery, combat engineers, and armor (tanks) finally opened up.

I personally think this was a good thing. It won't be like women will be seeing combat for the first time: women have been serving in roles that have seen lots of combat, including as helicopter pilots, truck drivers, military police, ordinance disposal and medics since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan began. I myself was a journalist and spent a lot of time embedded directly with infantry and artillery units, and I've always felt like this division of formal combat jobs versus jobs that often see combat was a political one more than anything else.

Now that this is done, it has renewed an old debate in the equality arena. In the U.S., all males between the ages of 18 and 25 must register with the Selective Service in order to be called up for a draft if necessary. Not only are women not currently required to do this, they aren't allowed even if they wanted to. The way the draft has previous worked is that when someone is drafted, they are drafted into the Army's infantry, and since women have been barred from serving in the infantry, they weren't required to register. If a person is drafted and found suitable for service, they can choose to formally enlist in another branch of service or in the Army for a different job, but doing so would extend the time they had to serve. In coming days however, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit will hear the case of National Coalition for Men vs. the Selective Service System.

It's unclear what will really happen. The court doesn't have the authority to require women to register: that's something that has to come through Congress. The case was filed before yesterday's announcement, but it will certainly make it a lot more tricky if the court upholds the Constitutionality of requiring men to sign up for the draft but continuing to exempt women.

http://www.stripes.com/news/us/court-to-hear-whether-women-should-register-for-draft-1.381862

[SGOS]

When I was 18, I was required to register, but it was my understanding that sometime after Vietnam, there was no longer a draft.  Were young men still required to register?

[TomFoolery]

When I was 18, I was required to register, but it was my understanding that sometime after Vietnam, there was no longer a draft.  Were young men still required to register?

Yes, they still are. The draft officially ended in 1973 and we shifted to an all-volunteer force, but theoretically the draft is there for when war breaks out and people stop getting tempted by $40,000 bonuses, healthcare and a college education.

[Jack89]

I personally think it's a bad idea, both women in combat roles and the draft for women.  Sure, there are a few women who could do the job well, but in my experience it messes up the group dynamic of a military unit. 

As far as the draft goes, I disagree with it for both men and women.  If you didn't volunteer, your heart's not in it and you shouldn't be there. 

[aitm]

A rather age old conundrum of the military. A unit may risk their lives to rescue a captured  comrade, an entire army will sacrifice dozens to save a female comrade from being raped by the enemy. I do not think I could put myself in a position that others would feel obligated to die to save me. Don't get me wrong, I certainly would hope they would want to save me, but not if they feel obligated.

[TomFoolery]

A unit may risk their lives to rescue a captured  comrade, an entire army will sacrifice dozens to save a female comrade from being raped by the enemy. I do not think I could put myself in a position that others would feel obligated to die to save me. Don't get me wrong, I certainly would hope they would want to save me, but not if they feel obligated.

But it was already happening before combat jobs were formally opened to women. Like I said, I was the only female embedded with infantry troops on a number of occasions, and I went on a few patrols with military police and convoys with support units where males and females served in permanent, cohesive units.

The scenario you're describing isn't really accurate. For one, men will do crazy or reckless things to save other men, so the idea of  men protecting women out of some chivalrous instinct is really more about moving heavens and earth to save your friends and knowing they'd do the same for you. Friendships forged in combat do that. For two, the only way to prevent what you're describing is to forbid women from serving in deployable units at all, which would put them back to pre-WWII candy-striping gigs and USO tours. Quite a few women have been both wounded and decorated for valor in combat.

In 2005, military police sergeant Leigh Ann Hester was awarded the Silver Star in Iraq after she successfully led her squad on an assault on enemy forces after their convoy was ambushed. In 2008, Specialist Monica Lin Brown was a medic and was only 19 when she was awarded the Silver Star in Afghanistan after she ran through heavy insurgent gunfire and mortar rounds to save the lives of of five wounded male comrades after her convoy had been struck by a roadside bomb. Those are just two notable cases, but they're far from rare, and at no point was anyone dying en masse to "save a female comrade."

[Baruch]

Just make serving in combat units ... according to an objective physical and mental requirement.  Then sex doesn't matter.  The real problem is the ever higher probability of rape, of mostly women in uniform, in any unit they serve in.  Some units don't require you to do a 20 mile hike ... have lower physical and mental requirements there.  The idea that every unit should be able to serve as infantrymen in combat ... is nuts.  Will never happen, since very few people both before, and especially after combat, are fit to serve in the most difficult positions.  But a butch woman can beat a timid man any day.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

With the current crop of crazy fuckers in congress now and the possibility of someone like Trump becoming president the draft is a very real possibility as are more unnecessary wars that can go on forever. Fewer and fewer people are willing to sign up for the all volunteer military knowing the many shitholes they might be deployed in and this congress doesn't seem to want to make it worth the risk. Whether anyone likes it or not it takes a shitload of money to wage war and without taxes it may become even more difficult so the real question has to be who the fuck is going to pay for it?

[Aletheia]

I think it's fair for both genders to shoulder the burden of being potentially drafted. I've never felt comfortable that only the males are at risk of being pulled from their homes and sent to the front line. As for women being raped in war zones... yeah, that's a possibility. It's a war zone, gruesome shit will happen. The Geneva Convention may have taken place, but that doesn't mean everyone will play fair - especially when nobody is looking. A woman who is brave enough to put herself at risk of being injured, raped, or killed is a worthy candidate for the military. The physical requirements will remain intact, which means the women who are accepted into infantry will have the physical strength and stamina to keep up with the men. I doubt there will be a lot of debutante-style women with the overtly feminine stereotype tendencies in the battlefield. Let's be honest, this is the military - not a beauty contest. As for group cohesion - the men will already be testing the merit of any woman within their ranks. That's what men do, especially if they perceive someone has being a potential weak-link. These women that make it through will have proven their worth which will improve group cohesion. As for sexual tension - it's not all about the straights. Gays have been overcoming sexual tension in the military for a while now. Anyone who can't find cohesion within the group are filtered out eventually. I think it's a common misconception that allowing women into the military means allowing ALL women to stay in the military. This isn't true. Those who can, stay. Those who can't, go home.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

More fodder for the cannons.

[Hydra009]

Women should be required to sign up for the draft just as men are or the draft should be abolished.  The status quo is clearly in opposition to equality of opportunity since it excludes an entire sex purely on the basis of sex.  To their credit, feminist groups have been trying to rectify this situation for decades now, though unfortunately, they have not yet succeeded.

[Solitary]

Just make severing in combat units ... according to an objective physical and mental requirement.  Then sex doesn't matter.  The real problem is the ever higher probability of rape, of mostly women in uniform, in any unit they serve in.  Some units don't require you to do a 20 mile hike ... have lower physical and mental requirements there.  The idea that every unit should be able to serve as infantrymen in combat ... is nuts.  Will never happen, since very few people both before, and especially after combat, are fit to serve in the most difficult positions.  But a butch woman can beat a timid man any day.

You got that right!  How do I post a picture now?

[Baruch]

With the current crop of crazy fuckers in congress now and the possibility of someone like Trump becoming president the draft is a very real possibility as are more unnecessary wars that can go on forever. Fewer and fewer people are willing to sign up for the all volunteer military knowing the many shitholes they might be deployed in and this congress doesn't seem to want to make it worth the risk. Whether anyone likes it or not it takes a shitload of money to wage war and without taxes it may become even more difficult so the real question has to be who the fuck is going to pay for it?

Some people want to destroy volunteer service.  They like the involuntary aspect, and paying someone subsistence to risk their lives is cheaper than the current system.  Just to deal with the feminists and the colleges, I would like the draft back ...draft everyone from 18-28 for two years.  If they aren't physically and mentally fit, put them in Americorp serving in the inner cities.  If the colleges shut down teaching for a couple of years ... it wouldn't hurt them, they would rather do research anyway.  Teaching undergraduates is considered dog work.  I don't see why we can't have both.  If young folks find it better in service, then let them stay in the military or Americorp as volunteers.  This is just a modification of the system we had when Eisenhower was President.  But it has to be universal ... no getting out of service just because of who your parents are ... that is one reason why the Vietnam period sucked.  If Cheney had been drafted, we might have never heard of him.  And Dubya would have had to work for his military salary, instead of going on drunken binges and serving "alternative duty" on political campaigns.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I personally think it's a bad idea, both women in combat roles and the draft for women.  Sure, there are a few women who could do the job well, but in my experience it messes up the group dynamic of a military unit.

That and the fact that while a shortage of young men won't necessarily impact the birth rate, a shortage of young women is the quickest way to induce a population bust. Just ask China...

[Aletheia]

That and the fact that while a shortage of young men won't necessarily impact the birth rate, a shortage of young women is the quickest way to induce a population bust. Just ask China...

Sigh... now if only countries had implemented drafting both genders into the military from the very beginning, then I'm sure wars would've been over much sooner. Money and males lives are cheap, but using up the main progenitor of the next generation is enough to make any politician pause.