Merged Topic - Historical Reliability of the Gospels

[Randy Carson]

And by FACT I mean verifiable, testable and disprovable evidence

But that is not the only kind of evidence that exists. Why overlook other types?

[Randy Carson]

So, the Church has a right to stick up for its view but Galileo does not? Why? An institution is better than a man?

Are you actually interested in learning about this? Is this REALLY important in your mind?

[Baruch]

The Church had proof that he was teaching his theory AS FACT.

It was his obstinacy that got him in trouble...not his science. The pope had been a supporter prior to this point.

If he had stuck to Latin, and only shared with scholars, it could have been contained.  But Galileo liked to give his fellow Italians all sorts of Italian body language ;-)

The fact is, that the Earth goes around the Sun, still isn't a FACT.  Fact is, the Sun and Earth both orbit their shared center of gravity.

[Baruch]

Are you actually interested in learning about this? Is this REALLY important in your mind?

Totalitarian systems work like that.  You are to be a worker bee in the hive.

[Baruch]

But that is not the only kind of evidence that exists. Why overlook other types?

Because they aren't casuists like you.

[marom1963]

They already knew he was right (as far as anyone could tell back then, the Earth rotating wasn't proven until the Foucault pendulum in the 19th century).  They knew before Columbus and Magellan, that the world was a sphere and not a dinner plate.  But they have to keep the laity in a state of suspended animation.  Fact is, we know now thru computer work, that Ptolemy fudged his numbers anyway, we know the star positions better than he did in Roman times ... and his numbers don't match what we know to be true.  He cleaned up his data, to better fit the epicycles.  Fact is, Copernicus and Ptolemy were both wrong, compared to Kepler.  Copernican system was heliocentric, but actually had more epicycles than Ptolemy did ... but lay history ignores that.  Heliocentric had to be denied on theological grounds, the number didn't matter except to astrologers anyway.  What destroyed Ptolemy was the moons of Jupiter ... and the fact that Galileo went public about that in Italian, not Latin.  With the first use of the telescope, the whole Catholic system teetered on extinction.  But you can't kill the undead, or their zombie Christ.

Thank you for that excellent summary.

[marom1963]

I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. Can someone tell me why I felt more at home w/my Jewish neighbors than I did w/my Catholic brethren. I never understood it. Maybe it was because the Jews just didn't seem to believe in something so moronic. At least their god came in one piece. At least they didn't expect people not born in their faith to become Jewish. Maybe it was because they were nice to me, even though I wasn't one of them.

[Baruch]

I am not anti-Catholic, just anti-dishonesty.

Even epicycles aren't as big a deal as they thought back then ... we now understand this as a rather literal form of Fourier analysis.  It is possible that Galileo wasn't that good at math, didn't read Copernicus' book in detail.  Galileo was a physicist first, and an astronomer second.  Galileo was wrong about the tides ... that was solved by Newton.  Galileo didn't like Kepler though they corresponded.  Galileo couldn't get past sacred circles.  Kepler as a real empirical guy, he showed that ellipses fit well, better than multiple circles ... but until Newton we had no reason why this should be so.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Are you actually interested in learning about this? Is this REALLY important in your mind?

Are you actually interested in the facts, or do you just want to belittle people for daring to disagree with you?

[Randy Carson]

I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. Can someone tell me why I felt more at home w/my Jewish neighbors than I did w/my Catholic brethren. I never understood it. Maybe it was because the Jews just didn't seem to believe in something so moronic. At least their god came in one piece. At least they didn't expect people not born in their faith to become Jewish. Maybe it was because they were nice to me, even though I wasn't one of them.

Jews were not commissioned by God to "Make disciples of all nations."

And Jews don't believe in anything so moronic as miracles. Oh, wait...

the burning bush
the parting of the Red Sea
Sodom and Gomorrah
The Battle of Jericho
etc, etc

[Randy Carson]

Are you actually interested in the facts, or do you just want to belittle people for daring to disagree with you?

Incorrect. And ironic.

I am happy to discuss the subject if he is really interested in understanding it. I am not going to waste more time if he is merely being argumentative.

[marom1963]

Jews were not commissioned by God to "Make disciples of all nations."

And Jews don't believe in anything so moronic as miracles. Oh, wait...

the burning bush
the parting of the Red Sea
Sodom and Gomorrah
The Battle of Jericho
etc, etc

Most of the Jews that I knew as a kid took the OT w/a grain of salt. What held them together was their faith and their tradition and their customs. I learned a lot of Yiddish, and I loved the food!

[Baruch]

Jews were not commissioned by God to "Make disciples of all nations."

And Jews don't believe in anything so moronic as miracles. Oh, wait...

the burning bush
the parting of the Red Sea
Sodom and Gomorrah
The Battle of Jericho
etc, etc

There were sects who believed in Biblical miracles literally ... too bad for them.

There were sects who believed in a mission to evangelize the Gentiles ... that didn't work out too well.

The Gentiles evangelized themselves, with mock Judaism.  Hebrew envy.

[Randy Carson]

Nearly all of them are long dead. Most living scientists are - not Catholic. You've got tens of thousands of living scientists, stupid. Not a list  as short as yours. Big Deal to your list!
Here are some facts concerning the religious beliefs of modern scientists -
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/

LOL! Really? 93% of the members of the National Academy of sciences and the Royal Academy of Sciences do not believe in a personal god.

And some facts from a NEWER study (2014):

Which Scientists Believe
Millions identify themselves as evangelicals, but few are at research universities.
Christine Herman/ March 28, 2014

A new study that 2 million of the nation's 12 million scientists identify as evangelical Christians. In other words, if you were to convene all the evangelical scientists, they could populate the city of Houston.

The finding is the first to be made public from the largest study of American views on science and religion, which sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund and her colleagues at Rice University and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) wrapped up in early 2014. Seventeen percent of scientists said "evangelical" describes them "somewhat" or "very well," compared to 23 percent of all respondents.

It's a dramatically higher percentage than found in Ecklund's 2010 survey of scientists at top universities: only about 2 percent identified as evangelical. The new survey, by contrast, focused on "rank and file" scientists, including those in health care, life sciences, computers, and engineering.

The new survey also found that the same number of people in the general public perceive hostility by religious people toward science as perceive hostility by scientists toward religionâ€"about 1 in 5. But among evangelical scientists, a strong majority (57 percent) perceive hostility from scientists toward religion. That suggests Christians in scientific fields have negative experiences with fellow scientists in the workplace regarding their faith.

Evangelical scientists are more active in their faith than American evangelicals in general, the survey indicates. They are more likely to consider themselves very religious, to attend religious services weekly, and to read religious texts at least every week.

+++

Wonder how many Catholic scientists you could add to the 2 Million Evangelical scientists? Orthodox? Jewish? Theist?

And 57% of believing scientists perceive hostility from non-believing scientists? So much for maintaining an open mind, atheists!

My work is done here.

[marom1963]

And some facts from a NEWER study (2014):

Which Scientists Believe
Millions identify themselves as evangelicals, but few are at research universities.
Christine Herman/ March 28, 2014

A new study that 2 million of the nation's 12 million scientists identify as evangelical Christians. In other words, if you were to convene all the evangelical scientists, they could populate the city of Houston.

The finding is the first to be made public from the largest study of American views on science and religion, which sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund and her colleagues at Rice University and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) wrapped up in early 2014. Seventeen percent of scientists said "evangelical" describes them "somewhat" or "very well," compared to 23 percent of all respondents.

It's a dramatically higher percentage than found in Ecklund's 2010 survey of scientists at top universities: only about 2 percent identified as evangelical. The new survey, by contrast, focused on "rank and file" scientists, including those in health care, life sciences, computers, and engineering.

The new survey also found that the same number of people in the general public perceive hostility by religious people toward science as perceive hostility by scientists toward religionâ€"about 1 in 5. But among evangelical scientists, a strong majority (57 percent) perceive hostility from scientists toward religion. That suggests Christians in scientific fields have negative experiences with fellow scientists in the workplace regarding their faith.

Evangelical scientists are more active in their faith than American evangelicals in general, the survey indicates. They are more likely to consider themselves very religious, to attend religious services weekly, and to read religious texts at least every week.

+++

Wonder how many Catholic scientists you could add to the 2 Million Evangelical scientists? Orthodox? Jewish? Theist?

And 57% of believing scientists perceive hostility from non-believing scientists? So much for maintaining an open mind, atheists!

My work is done here.

Putting the "million" in there is an attempt to take advantage of the wide math illiteracy of the American public. You're still talking about less than 20% of scientists. That leaves an overwhelming 80% who are not evangelical  Christians. There's not a politician on the planet who wouldn't kill for numbers like that.