HUD Smoke-Free Proposal - Vanishing Liberty for Low-Income Americans

[Solomon Zorn]

lololol  Such entitlement!  Look, college kids face the same issues when they live in on-campus housing:  they have to go out in the cold and snow to smoke their cigarettes.  This is of course NOT a war on college students.  It's putting the burden associated with smoking exactly where it should be:  on the SMOKER who chooses to smoke.  Smokers think they have the right to pollute the air of anyone around them.  Nope, that's just entitlement bs.

It's always "entitlement," when it's someone else's liberty. It can hardly be called "entitlement," when we're talking about my living room, where I've always been free to smoke, and never had a neighbor complain. I'm not smoking in your living room, so how am I "polluting the air of anyone" around me? I don't expect indoor public spaces to accommodate me. But outside, in the open air, or in the privacy of my apartment, I expect that my freedom should be respected.

And I'm not a college student, living with a bunch of other students, and moving out in a couple of years. I'm a long-term tenant, and my smoking affects no one but me.

[Hakurei Reimu]

It's always "entitlement," when it's someone else's liberty. It can hardly be called "entitlement," when we're talking about my living room,

You're renting your living room. It's not yours. It's the apartment complex owner's.

where I've always been free to smoke, and never had a neighbor complain. I'm not smoking in your living room, so how am I "polluting the air of anyone" around me? I don't expect indoor public spaces to accommodate me. But outside, in the open air, or in the privacy of my apartment, I expect that my freedom should be respected.

In case you haven't noticed, smoke travels. Furthermore, you don't seem to realize that tobacco smoke penetrates. Read my rant.

And I'm not a college student, living with a bunch of other students, and moving out in a couple of years. I'm a long-term tenant, and my smoking affects no one but me.

I'm sure that you have no intention of moving out soon. Shit happens, though.

[aitm]

Thanks for caring, enough to let us know that you don't care. :72:

yeah..sorry bout that..

[Baruch]

There is a disagreement of property vs society.  Americans have no society, they are only individuals who do anything they want to anyone they want.  Except not all Americans are created equal, or at least end up as equal.  Some people are bigger assholes than other people, and as such exert more or less impact on the others.  In pure capitalism, everyone are equal assholes ... but that doesn't correspond with any reality.  There are always bigger assholes ... as any gunslinger will tell you.  So you ability to own something, depends on your relative social ass-hole-ness.  The greatest assholes have the most stuff.  They will tell you this is because of their ... woo woo merit.  This naturally conflicts with the average have-nots ... the middle class ... and the inevitable below-average have-not conflict with both.  The natural tendency is for one monkey to end up with all the bananas ... and the remaining monkeys, who haven't starved to death, are out to kill him.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Look, I'm certainly no fan of the government, but this is a simple property rights matter.  What some are trying to do is carve out an exception in property rights saying they don't apply in certain cases.

That's why I came down on a side that surprises some.  I see the issue as "why the heck is the government the landlord?" instead of "the landlord is setting property usage rules."  Since, unfortunately, the government is the landlord, the government gets to act like a landlord.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

If you're a low-income smoker, I have a solution with a 100% guarantee of saving you money:

[spoiler=You ready for this?]QUIT FUCKING SMOKING![/spoiler]

[Baruch]

Look, I'm certainly no fan of the government, but this is a simple property rights matter.  What some are trying to do is carve out an exception in property rights saying they don't apply in certain cases.

That's why I came down on a side that surprises some.  I see the issue as "why the heck is the government the landlord?" instead of "the landlord is setting property usage rules."  Since, unfortunately, the government is the landlord, the government gets to act like a landlord.

The government ultimately owns all the property and all the money (and indirectly all the things bought with money) ... they are only loaning it to you.  Americans are so gullible.  Land-lord is the correct word ... so British ;-)  If the government, for example, decides to manipulate the banks into charging negative interest ... this is a tax, but also the government simply taking back what is theirs.  You think you worked for some money, and you can save some of it ... but you are very wrong.

But yes, I agree it is best when the government doesn't directly landlord ... but the reverse of that is privatization ... and that is very corrupt process too.  This privatization went on, every time the government conquered more Native territory.  The land speculators acting as agents of the government, moved in, even before the pioneers.  Pure privatization is anarchist anyway ... in all things moderation is best.

I am as against smoking as the next non-smoker.  And I don't believe in political rights or other 18th century bull shit.  But can we check our privilege?  Middle/upper class citizens telling lower class citizens how to live their lives ... because we are so much more meritorious than they are?  How British class conscious is that?  But then some of our posters are actual Brits ... no insult intended.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

A question: If your body odor was a pervasive as your cigarette smoke do you think people would have a right to complain?

[doorknob]

It's easy to tell some one to quit smoking but unless you've suffered from any kind of addiction you would know that it's not that simple or easy.

as for the government being the landlord. The government in many cases is not the land lord. You still have a land lord but the government pays part of or all of your rent through a voucher system.

Now my case is different since I'm in a hud owned and run apartment building so my landlord is the government but that is not always the case.

I don't see how hud can enforce this rule though if the recipient is in a smoking building. And as long as the smoker doesn't have kids I could give two craps if they smoke at home or not.

[Mermaid]

If you're a low-income smoker, I have a solution with a 100% guarantee of saving you money:

[spoiler=You ready for this?]QUIT FUCKING SMOKING![/spoiler]

It's extremely hard to quit smoking. Just like it's extremely hard to lose weight. It's not realistic to judge people like that.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

It's extremely hard to quit smoking. Just like it's extremely hard to lose weight.

True, but you don't see me bitching and moaning about how inconvenient the world is for fat people.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It's extremely hard to quit smoking. Just like it's extremely hard to lose weight. It's not realistic to judge people like that.

I quit smoking cold turkey in 1988. It was harder than kicking the over-enthusiastic pain relief program the Navy got me on back in 1972, but I was ready and determined to quit. Two weeks of diminishing withdrawal symptoms and I was over the hump. Today that saves me about $60/week. Plus I wouldn't be with my current wife if I smoked.

Nobody can quit smoking until they want to, not even with the chemical aids that make it a lot easier today. The only reason people smoke now is because they want to keep smoking.

[Solomon Zorn]

A question: If your body odor was a pervasive as your cigarette smoke do you think people would have a right to complain?

I smoke cigars. And tobacco smell is far less offensive than body odor. Even to a non-smoker, generally.

[Mermaid]

I quit smoking cold turkey in 1988. It was harder than kicking the over-enthusiastic pain relief program the Navy got me on back in 1972, but I was ready and determined to quit. Two weeks of diminishing withdrawal symptoms and I was over the hump. Today that saves me about $60/week. Plus I wouldn't be with my current wife if I smoked.

Nobody can quit smoking until they want to, not even with the chemical aids that make it a lot easier today. The only reason people smoke now is because they want to keep smoking.

I have also quit smoking, more than once, so I also understand how hard it is.
Chemical aids cost money and require additional resources like transportation and medical care. Cigarette companies specifically target low income people and strategize to keep them addicted.
It's very easy to judge people until you are in their shoes.

[Solomon Zorn]

I quit smoking cold turkey in 1988. It was harder than kicking the over-enthusiastic pain relief program the Navy got me on back in 1972, but I was ready and determined to quit. Two weeks of diminishing withdrawal symptoms and I was over the hump. Today that saves me about $60/week. Plus I wouldn't be with my current wife if I smoked.

Nobody can quit smoking until they want to, not even with the chemical aids that make it a lot easier today. The only reason people smoke now is because they want to keep smoking.

I've smoked for 35 years, and I want to keep smoking.