Solve the immigration and terrorist Problem

[GreatLife]

An ambitious goal to be sure.

Along the lines of give a man a fish and you feed him for a day... But teach him to fish and he becomes a provider for his own.

Why don't we collect up all of the refugees from the ME and train THEM on how to take back their own countries from the radicals.

Need ground troops? Most of the immigrants are young men... And there are apparently millions of them. Surely 250 to 300,000 could be found to act as ground troops. Train them someplace secure and give them one mission. Defeat ISIL and set up a new government.

Need politicians? Train some of these people in political science.

Need nurses and doctors. Start getting them trained.

Teachers? Same deal.

New religious training? Ensure that it is the liberal type of Islam that they get indoctrinated in.  I would say make them atheists.... But, maybe, baby steps first to solve the problem.

The west has to do something with these people. They really should move back and defend their own, with our assistance.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[pr126]

First, there is no such thing as a "liberal type" of Islam. Never was.
Read the Quran, Hadits, Sirat Rasool

Second, no Muslim will take any notice of a non Muslim's advice on their religion.
See Quran 3:110
Yusuf Ali: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah.

Third, Quran 3:5 says:
This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
Why would you want to change "perfection"?

Fourth, The Quran is Allah's own words, which cannot be changed. To attempt do so is blasphemy, punishable by death.

Non Muslims should stay well away from any interference of trying to change Islam in any way.
That is asking for trouble. Furthermore, it shows that they have absolutely no understanding of Islam.

This will have to come from within Islam, by Muslims themselves.

Prepare for a very long wait.

[Baruch]

GreatLife ... what do you think our failed Syrian insurgency has been doing?

pr126 ... I agree that interference by outside ignorant folks ... is not a positive step.  At least in America, we are the Ugly American, we know what is best for everyone, particularly Vietnamese ;-(  Modesty is the best policy.

[SoldierofFortune]

First, there is no such thing as a "liberal type" of Islam. Never was.
Read the Quran, Hadits, Sirat Rasool

Second, no Muslim will take any notice of a non Muslim's advice on their religion.
See Quran 3:110
Yusuf Ali: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah.

Third, Quran 3:5 says:
This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
Why would you want to change "perfection"?

Fourth, The Quran is Allah's own words, which cannot be changed. To attempt do so is blasphemy, punishable by death.

Non Muslims should stay well away from any interference of trying to change Islam in any way.
That is asking for trouble. Furthermore, it shows that they have absolutely no understanding of Islam.

This will have to come from within Islam, by Muslims themselves.

Prepare for a very long wait.

i am sure that with optimistic prediction %95 percent of muslims don't read the entire quran even one time.

[TomFoolery]

Why don't we collect up all of the refugees from the ME and train THEM on how to take back their own countries from the radicals.

Look up Sons of Iraq and then get back to me.

Need ground troops? Most of the immigrants are young men... And there are apparently millions of them. Surely 250 to 300,000 could be found to act as ground troops. Train them someplace secure and give them one mission. Defeat ISIL and set up a new government.

Need politicians? Train some of these people in political science.

Need nurses and doctors. Start getting them trained.

Teachers? Same deal.

What do you think we've been attempting to do in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than a decade? We spent years training Iraqi troops to defend and police their own state, and it took ISIS less than a year to undo it. It sounds like a simple solution, but trust me, a few months of job training isn't going to overcome more than a millennia of tribal strife, centuries of religious conflict, a culture where corruption and oppression are assumed, and poverty.

I understand the sentiment behind wanting these people to fight for their country and their families, but I don't see the point in blaming the refugees. Not all people are cut out for war. I don't blame them for not wanting to live with more violence. If the situation for their families wasn't tenuous before, imagine what it would become when ISIS finds out who they are? It's heroic and all to talk about "if this happened in my country, I'd kill those bastards!" but let's be real, there's a huge difference between going to war to fight someone else and having war right on your doorstep. And not just any war with a clear enemy, basic rules of decency, and the Geneva Conventions: a war with a hard-to-define enemy that uses brutal tactics like beheadings and crucifixion to keep people in check. It's easier to take actions against an enemy when you're not worried about what's going to happen to your kids if the enemy finds out. I don't blame the Jews for failing to prevent the Holocaust, and I'm not blaming refugees for failing to overthrow ISIS.

I wanted to both laugh and cry when Donald Trump suggested making a safe zone in Syria because it would be cheaper.

Like oh really? I had no idea it was that easy? Shit, why didn't we just do that in Iraq back in 2004 so we could have left without a long, drawn-out occupation. Oh wait, we did build a safe zone. We called it the green zone, and it was 10 square kilometers in the heart of Baghdad and cost us billions and once we left, it wasn't so safe anymore. Creating a "safe zone" for over 4 million Syrian refugees that have fled the country since 2011 does nothing to address refugees from other countries or the sheer amount of resources that would be involved. The money we spent on the war on terror in Iraq would probably pale in comparison. But screw it, let's do it. Maybe we could staff it with Russian models to work as NGOs who drive around in chariots pulled by unicorns.

[pr126]

i am sure that with optimistic prediction %95 percent of muslims don't read the entire quran even one time.

Not really necessary. The "knowledge" is passed on by family, peers, and clergy. 
A lifelong indoctrination.

[pr126]

SoldierofFortune wrote:

Need ground troops? Most of the immigrants are young men... And there are apparently millions of them. Surely 250 to 300,000 could be found to act as ground troops. Train them someplace secure and give them one mission.

Done.
The US has trained them, kitted them out with billions worth of hardware. (Your taxes at work),
When it came to the crunch, they all run away, leaving the weapons to ISIS.
Fail big time.

[FaithIsFilth]

GreatLife... the refugees are running away from the terrorists armed by the West. So, you want the refugees armed, to defeat the people that we are arming? I don't think I follow. The Syrian conflict was started with the West sending terrorists in to destabilize the secular Assad government.

Forcing these refugees to go back and fight would be a really stupid thing to do. These people do not want to fight. That's why they ran. There are already plenty of terrorist ground forces fighting so the US can have their pipeline, and more terrorists being armed daily by us. These refugees don't have the will to fight. Why? Because they are not terrorists, and they don't want to join any of the many anti Assad terrorist groups there are to choose from.

[CloneKai]

i am sure that with optimistic prediction %95 percent of muslims don't read the entire quran even one time.

most muslim atleast read quran once. from front cover to back cover
even i have read quran atleast twice or maybe even three times

but most muslims also read like
aaaa-iiiiii-uuuuuuu
not knowing what the hell they are reading. apparently just reading one alphabet from quran gives you many blessing from all@h.
they just have to do it to get their parents off their back
that is why i had to do it too

O yeah some also memorize the entire quran. they also might not know the meaning though

[Baruch]

I takes a lifetime of study, to understand any literature, let alone a holy scripture.  But yes, people put great store in having read something once, or memorizing something ... this is true in all cultures.  Most people aren't ready to become books, like the Resistance in Fahrenheit 451.

[GreatLife]

First, there is no such thing as a "liberal type" of Islam. Never was.
Read the Quran, Hadits, Sirat Rasool

Liberal people are everywhere - it is a human condition that can be suppressed, but never destroyed.

So I totally disagree with most of your statements, as they hinge on this.

For an explanation on my views of liberal / conservative, this video will be helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc

Second, no Muslim will take any notice of a non Muslim's advice on their religion.
See Quran 3:110
Yusuf Ali: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah.

This complaint has been handled, I said we need to find other muslims - not christians - in order to form new leadership.

But, no one knows what is in the Koran, and they are too lazy to check.  So what their liberal imam (or whatever) tells them, will eventually become their truth.

Lots of proof here in the real world, if you care to check those facts rather than ignored rantings of a book.

Third, Quran 3:5 says:
This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
Why would you want to change "perfection"?

I will simply use this quote to support my version of perfect... happens all the time.  This is not a problem.

[/quote]
Fourth, The Quran is Allah's own words, which cannot be changed. To attempt do so is blasphemy, punishable by death.

Non Muslims should stay well away from any interference of trying to change Islam in any way.
That is asking for trouble. Furthermore, it shows that they have absolutely no understanding of Islam.

This will have to come from within Islam, by Muslims themselves.

Prepare for a very long wait.
[/quote]

Can't be changed, but there are lots of interpretations.  We simply teach them a good interpretation and ways to defend it.

Happens every time there is a new discovery which invalidates scripture today.

[GreatLife]

GreatLife ... what do you think our failed Syrian insurgency has been doing?

pr126 ... I agree that interference by outside ignorant folks ... is not a positive step.  At least in America, we are the Ugly American, we know what is best for everyone, particularly Vietnamese ;-(  Modesty is the best policy.

There are two ways in which what I have suggested are different - and they are important.

I stated that we get them out of the area and put them into camps.  You must isolate them long enough (from the extremists - don't take that too far) to teach them something new.

The problem with Syria is two-fold.  We don't know who to train and during the training, they are being constantly hit with other views on what is correct.  The person with the loudest voice wins these contests - and the US is very weak.  I am not surprised that this type of effort failed.  But I also refuse to quit trying just because a couple of idiots in the US government threw together a completely brain-dead program to somehow satisfy public demands that we are doing something.

And I strongly disagree with your suggestion that we don't know better than ISIS... borders on stupidity and is certainly ignorant, to be honest.  We may not be perfect, but our stance on governance, human rights, property rights, slavery, and nearly every other topic I can imagine - are superior by any humanist philosopher's measure.  Or put another way, you have to seek a religious philosopher to make the case that ISIS policy is better than USs policy.

[GreatLife]

Look up Sons of Iraq and then get back to me.

Already know about them, don't see the relevance.  Perhaps you could explain your point?

What do you think we've been attempting to do in Iraq and Afghanistan for more than a decade? We spent years training Iraqi troops to defend and police their own state, and it took ISIS less than a year to undo it. It sounds like a simple solution, but trust me, a few months of job training isn't going to overcome more than a millennia of tribal strife, centuries of religious conflict, a culture where corruption and oppression are assumed, and poverty.

No - we are doing something different.  We tried to train up three different forces, not one integrated force.  When we abondoned Iraq, one of those forces (the Sunnis in Anbar) were abandoned by us, and the Iraqi govt.  Their decision was to die, or become part of a larger group - ISIS. They chose ISIS.  No surprise there at all.

I am not trying to defend what the US has done - it is wrong.  So your points about how wrong this has been, will fall on deaf ears.

I understand the sentiment behind wanting these people to fight for their country and their families, but I don't see the point in blaming the refugees. Not all people are cut out for war. I don't blame them for not wanting to live with more

Not sure how you get victim-blaming out of my comments.

No one wants war - that is for sure.  But if it is important, everyone can contribute in some way to a war effort.

The people who don't want to fight, can teach... or govern... or drive a damn taxi.  If it is important to THEM as a people - they should want to contribute, in any way possible.  If they are not willing to fight for what they believe in - why should we?  I don't believe in their archaic systems of governance,  they don't believe in the archaic system of government (or they would be staying)... and yet you are asking me to fight for them... even when they refuse.

violence. If the situation for their families wasn't tenuous before, imagine what it would become when ISIS finds out who they are? It's heroic and all to talk about "if this happened in my country, I'd kill those bastards!" but let's be real, there's a huge difference between going to war to fight someone else and having war right on your doorstep. And not just any war with a clear enemy, basic rules of decency, and the Geneva Conventions: a war with a hard-to-define enemy that uses brutal tactics like beheadings and crucifixion to keep people in check.

Sounds like the US civil war.  And yet, as citizens, we did not flee in huge numbers to Mexico/Canada and seek asylum.  Each side fought for their beliefs.

Sounds like the bias of soft expectations to me.

It's easier to take actions against an enemy when you're not worried about what's going to happen to your kids if the enemy finds out. I don't blame the Jews for failing to prevent the Holocaust, and I'm not blaming refugees for failing to overthrow ISIS.

You either didn't read my post - or you are injecting a lot of made up shit...

I don't blame the Jews... I don't blame the refugees...  I am simply suggesting a different path.

And, again, if the people in that area don't feel that it is worth fighting for... why would I send my family in to fight in their place?

I wanted to both laugh and cry when Donald Trump suggested making a safe zone in Syria because it would be cheaper.

Donald Trump is an idiot - I won't defend anything he says.