How can it be possible for us to be "born in sin"?

Started by peacewithoutgod, November 12, 2015, 12:36:04 PM

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facebook164


Quote from: Baruch on November 13, 2015, 10:30:22 PM
A thing and a person, are not comparable.  In fact many things are not mutually comparable.  A hammer vs hate for example.  Is the Devil a person?  But your capitalization does work ... Is the devil a thing?  As an idea, the devil is very much a thing.  For a monotheist, the Devil as a person presents difficulties.  But the devil as a thing, is more like hate than like a hammer.
A person is a thing. A very complex thing.


Baruch

Quote from: facebook164 on November 14, 2015, 06:23:44 PM
A person is a thing. A very complex thing.

And Jesus is The Word ;-) ... which is a kind of thing.  There are several kinds of things ... this ancient theology in modern terms would be that Jesus is The Meme of all other memes.  Pythagoreans would on the other hand say that everything, including people, are numbers ... which is another kind of thing ... or perhaps a different kind of word.  For Pythagoras, the number of all numbers is "one" not Jesus.  Physicists would say that everything, including people, are quantum fields (strings being just one speculative kind of quantum field).  Modern physicists have moved beyond materialism or Thales to Pythagoreanism.  All these alternatives are reductionist ... which comes about because of the success/failure of applying abstraction to human experience ... aka analysis (in the general sense, not Calculus ... but for awhile they were synonymous).  As a holistic thinker ... I see reductionism of limited tool for limited situations.  But metaphysically, for me ... thingness isn't a greater abstraction than person-ness ... for you it is the exact opposite.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Gawdzilla Sama

The Original Sin idea is to keep people from thinking that if they lead a good and blameless life they don't need the fat friars to "save" them. If they didn't have this hook on people the crowd would have figured out that there's no need for the freeloaders.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

g2perk

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 14, 2015, 08:22:47 PM
The Original Sin idea is to keep people from thinking that if they lead a good and blameless life they don't need the fat friars to "save" them. If they didn't have this hook on people the crowd would have figured out that there's no need for the freeloaders.
I don't believe that is how sin works. The idea of sin in the Christian world is to be used as a principal of life. It should not be used to control people but unfortunately many pastors do use it for that purpose. That's wrong.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Baruch

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 14, 2015, 08:22:47 PM
The Original Sin idea is to keep people from thinking that if they lead a good and blameless life they don't need the fat friars to "save" them. If they didn't have this hook on people the crowd would have figured out that there's no need for the freeloaders.

Why were the friars so fat?  Because 60% of their calories were from wine that they fermented themselves.  Drinking unportable water shortened your life span!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

facebook164


Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 07:35:54 PM
And Jesus is The Word ;-) ... which is a kind of thing.  There are several kinds of things ... this ancient theology in modern terms would be that Jesus is The Meme of all other memes.  Pythagoreans would on the other hand say that everything, including people, are numbers ... which is another kind of thing ... or perhaps a different kind of word.  For Pythagoras, the number of all numbers is "one" not Jesus.  Physicists would say that everything, including people, are quantum fields (strings being just one speculative kind of quantum field).  Modern physicists have moved beyond materialism or Thales to Pythagoreanism.  All these alternatives are reductionist ... which comes about because of the success/failure of applying abstraction to human experience ... aka analysis (in the general sense, not Calculus ... but for awhile they were synonymous).  As a holistic thinker ... I see reductionism of limited tool for limited situations.  But metaphysically, for me ... thingness isn't a greater abstraction than person-ness ... for you it is the exact opposite.
Really?  You mange to write an humpback expose of the history of ideas but you doesnt care to avtually argue anything about the actual matter: What in a person abstraction is not covered by the thing abstraction.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: g2perk on November 14, 2015, 09:42:10 PM
I don't believe that is how sin works. The idea of sin in the Christian world is to be used as a principal of life. It should not be used to control people but unfortunately many pastors do use it for that purpose. That's wrong.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


"Sin" doesn't work at all. It's people manipulating people that works. (I'm speaking of "sin" in the sense that blasphemy, etc., is a sin against a god or gods.)
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Baruch on November 14, 2015, 10:32:44 PM
Why were the friars so fat?  Because 60% of their calories were from wine that they fermented themselves.  Drinking unportable water shortened your life span!
And the only way to have something safe to drink was to turn it into alcohol. Convenient, that. However, the image of a fat friar telling people they have to suffer on Earth if they want to get to Heaven, including malnutrition, is simply bizarre.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

gentle_dissident

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 15, 2015, 07:26:39 AM
And the only way to have something safe to drink was to turn it into alcohol. Convenient, that. However, the image of a fat friar telling people they have to suffer on Earth if they want to get to Heaven, including malnutrition, is simply bizarre.
"With their own hands they are to present the food offering to the Lord; they are to bring the fat, together with the breast, and wave the breast before the Lord as a wave offering. The priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast belongs to Aaron and his sons. You are to give the right thigh of your fellowship offerings to the priest as a contribution."

Baruch

Quote from: facebook164 on November 15, 2015, 02:28:40 AM
Really?  You mange to write an humpback expose of the history of ideas but you doesnt care to avtually argue anything about the actual matter: What in a person abstraction is not covered by the thing abstraction.

You can look at the world standing on your feet, or standing on your head.  Ideas are things.  People have ideas ... ideas don't have people.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

facebook164

Quote from: Baruch on November 15, 2015, 08:27:09 AM
You can look at the world standing on your feet, or standing on your head.  Ideas are things.  People have ideas ... ideas don't have people.
So your argument is "things cannot have things"?
Ideas are behavior. Things have behavior.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: gentle_dissident on November 15, 2015, 08:04:12 AM
"With their own hands they are to present the food offering to the Lord; they are to bring the fat, together with the breast, and wave the breast before the Lord as a wave offering. The priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast belongs to Aaron and his sons. You are to give the right thigh of your fellowship offerings to the priest as a contribution."
And that relates to fat friars in what fashion?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Baruch

Quote from: facebook164 on November 15, 2015, 09:23:48 AM
So your argument is "things cannot have things"?
Ideas are behavior. Things have behavior.

Communication is challenging ;-)  Yes, ideas are lead to behavior, they aren't behavior itself.  The control signal (voltage) controls the generator that provides the electric power.  The control signal is the idea, the electric power is the thing.  Things that are dynamic ... and many things are .... those things have behavior.  But a rock isn't dynamic, it just sits there ... it doesn't have behavior.  A river has behavior, it flows.  But it would be an overgeneralization to say that a human is a river ... a human is dynamic, but a human is alive, but a river isn't alive even though it is dynamic ... and of course a static rock has neither dynamics or life.  I would be more critical in the use of the word "behavior" ... limiting it to living things, but we don't need to go there.

And yes, things can't have things.  A rock doesn't give birth to more rocks ... and a riven can merge into a larger river and eventually merge into the sea ... but only a woman can give birth.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 15, 2015, 09:54:04 AM
And that relates to fat friars in what fashion?

The idea being that scripture mandates the sustainment of the clergy by the peasants.  The clergy in theory provide a service ... the peasants provide commodities.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.