How can it be possible for us to be "born in sin"?

[peacewithoutgod]

When Gaad cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, he cursed their offspring and all their descendants so that they too would sin, got that. But that doesn't quite explain how all of us who are said to have descended from this pair of sex dolls are actually born sinners! How can that be possible, when you have to have actually done something to be a sinner? How could I have done anything before I was born? Is it something I did while still in the womb? Have fetuses been observed masturbating in the womb via ultrasound, or blaspheming Gaad in some way?

[Baruch]

One early made up theology was "traducianism".   That while bodies produced bodies, it was souls that produced souls.  So a kind of dualism, that was later repeated in more secular form by Descartes.  So you get a sinful soul because your soul is produced at conception from two parent's whose souls were sinful to begin with.  The Church Father, Tertullian, promoted this ... along with Trinitarianism and other questionable innovations.  Later theology basically is the two Adam theory, that we are all extensions of the original Adam, not complete individuals.  And by replacing the old Adam with the new Adam (Christ) then we are reborn as sinless beings.  This was more gnostic .. but equally woo woo.

[gentle_dissident]

The way I've heard it from a preacher, we are born as animals. We need to be trained to overcome our nature. This is true. However, I think sublimating our true mammalian nature creates neuroses. I feel we should be more understanding of our antisocial thoughts and behaviors. It's a bad idea to condemn people for being who they genetically are. We wind up with self righteous authority figures who are often hypocritical.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Well, if the mother-to-be's hospital bed is positioned in such a way that the opposite sits above the hypotenuse, then her baby would be born in sin. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[Baruch]

The way I've heard it from a preacher, we are born as animals. We need to be trained to overcome our nature. This is true. However, I think sublimating our true mammalian nature creates neuroses. I feel we should be more understanding of our antisocial thoughts and behaviors. It's a bad idea to condemn people for being who they genetically are. We wind up with self righteous authority figures who are often hypocritical.

Knowledge is both a plus and a minus ... good news/bad news.  Understanding is what helps us cope with knowledge ... so more understanding is always good.

[TomFoolery]

How could I have done anything before I was born? Is it something I did while still in the womb? Have fetuses been observed masturbating, or blaspheming Gaad in some way?

Because your parents had to fuck to even make you, which is a sin. So the second your sperm self high-fived your egg self to become your zygote self, you had sinned via your dirty-minded progenitors. Yes, before you even had a central nervous system to register such a thing.

[peacewithoutgod]

One early made up theology was "traducianism".   That while bodies produced bodies, it was souls that produced souls.  So a kind of dualism, that was later repeated in more secular form by Descartes.  So you get a sinful soul because your soul is produced at conception from two parent's whose souls were sinful to begin with.  The Church Father, Tertullian, promoted this ... along with Trinitarianism and other questionable innovations.  Later theology basically is the two Adam theory, that we are all extensions of the original Adam, not complete individuals.  And by replacing the old Adam with the new Adam (Christ) then we are reborn as sinless beings.  This was more gnostic .. but equally woo woo.

So then, I should carry the guilt of a guilty "soul" from birth, but you cannot be guilty of what you don't remember or do not understand. Even the laws of mortal man proscribe (although not perfectly in practice where US States practice capital punishment) the putting to death of one who is not mentally competent to understand the nature of their crime, or could not have been so at the time. As for me, not mentally incompetent (if I don't say so myself), but then I sure don't have awareness of what I did before I was born, therefore I don't understand the nature of it. But then whoever said Gaad is a just god? Oh...wait!

[missingnocchi]

When I was a Christian, I was taught to understand it in two different ways: it is a metaphysical separation of the soul from God, or alternately it is the absence of God. Taken in conjunction with the Biblical assertion that we are created in God's image, this takes on a kind of Platonic flair. God is the perfect form in which we participate, and sin as an action is any way in which our participation becomes more imperfect. Of course, that conception breaks down with Nietzsche's tracing of the concepts of good and evil to sociological conditions, but nobody tell my old pastor that 

[peacewithoutgod]

Because your parents had to fuck to even make you, which is a sin. So the second your sperm self high-fived your egg self to become your zygote self, you had sinned via your dirty-minded progenitors. Yes, before you even had a central nervous system to register such a thing.

But that wasn't fucking, it was procreation - or at least that's what the mailman told my mother (Not actually true of me, and then some mailmen are faithful to their wives).

[Blackleaf]

What my old churches thought was that babies are born with a sin nature, but they are not guilty of committing sins yet. That means that they have a natural tendency to sin, and it doesn't have to be taught to them, unlike Adam and Eve. So basically, the child doesn't have to be taught how to lie, hit their siblings, or do anything bad. That's just in their nature. But most would not believe that babies would go to Hell when if they die, because they're incapable to making sinful decisions.

[Baruch]

So then, I should carry the guilt of a guilty "soul" from birth, but you cannot be guilty of what you don't remember or do not understand. Even the laws of mortal man proscribe (although not perfectly in practice where US States practice capital punishment) the putting to death of one who is not mentally competent to understand the nature of their crime, or could not have been so at the time. As for me, not mentally incompetent (if I don't say so myself), but then I sure don't have awareness of what I did before I was born, therefore I don't understand the nature of it. But then whoever said Gaad is a just god? Oh...wait!

Sin isn't about ethics or morality ... it has to do with kosher.  Your life starts in a womb, with blood .. and anything that is in contact with blood, is non-kosher.  Though there are other things like mold and yeast that are non-kosher too.  This is why in kosher cooking the blood is drained or otherwise minimized.  And of course birth is very non-kosher, is bloody ... if you have ever seen one.  It got to see my daughter getting born ... mien gott!  So no, sin has nothing to do with justice or injustice.  New Speak folks are always combining words to eliminate synonyms or even combining opposites to produce words that in their very nature are non-sense.  Also sin can be collective, but individuals don't get this.

This "born in blood" is part of the reason why infant baptism started.  Not because the babies were caught smoking, drinking and looking at porn ;-))

[1liesalot]

When Gaad cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, he cursed their offspring and all their descendants so that they too would sin, got that. But that doesn't quite explain how all of us who are said to have descended from this pair of sex dolls are actually born sinners! How can that be possible, when you have to have actually done something to be a sinner? How could I have done anything before I was born? Is it something I did while still in the womb? Have fetuses been observed masturbating in the womb via ultrasound, or blaspheming Gaad in some way?

What a silly question The Bible tells us we are sinful scum with our earthly cravings and the sinful bodily functions and the  biological imperative Yahweh bestowed on us in the first place. And since the bible tells us so and the gospel says the bible is inerrant, then the connection between the apple eating incident and our carnal abominations and wicked urges becomes obvious.

Glory! All praise is due to the Holy Cheese on Toast.

[1liesalot]

Duplicate

[Baruch]

What a silly question The Bible tells us we are sinful scum with our earthly cravings and the sinful bodily functions and the  biological imperative Yahweh bestowed on us in the first place. And since the bible tells us so and the gospel says the bible is inerrant, then the connection between the apple eating incident and our carnal abominations and wicked urges becomes obvious.

Glory! All praise is due to the Holy Cheese on Toast.

Actually that is what Calvinists tell us (such as Baptists) ... and they are heretics.

[peacewithoutgod]

Sin isn't about ethics or morality ... it has to do with kosher.  Your life starts in a womb, with blood .. and anything that is in contact with blood, is non-kosher.  Though there are other things like mold and yeast that are non-kosher too.  This is why in kosher cooking the blood is drained or otherwise minimized.  And of course birth is very non-kosher, is bloody ... if you have ever seen one.  It got to see my daughter getting born ... mien gott!  So no, sin has nothing to do with justice or injustice.  New Speak folks are always combining words to eliminate synonyms or even combining opposites to produce words that in their very nature are non-sense.  Also sin can be collective, but individuals don't get this.

This "born in blood" is part of the reason why infant baptism started.  Not because the babies were caught smoking, drinking and looking at porn ;-))

If Kosher is about contact with blood, then how can modern Judaism permit the consumption of any meat? It cannot exist without having grown through contact, direct or not, with the blood which fed it, carrying the nutrients which it allowed it to grow!