A Very Good Demo Of Global Warming's Cause

[missingnocchi]

whether you want to consider that as "freely available" or not, it is certainly abundant.

https://climate.ncsu.edu/edu/k12/.AtmComposition

Hydrogen is so sparse in our atmosphere that it doesn't even qualify to be listed as a trace component. Baruch is correct, existing energy sources must be used to create hydrogen. That Home Energy Station Honda mentions in your link? It makes the hydrogen from natural gas: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/home-energy-station.aspx

[stromboli]

Right. I don't claim to be an expert, but the fact is that Hydrogen is burned as a fuel. And also making gasoline requires external energy. They have refineries for that. The only fuel that I am aware of that comes straight out of the ground would be natural gas. And as is the case with gasoline, the product itself can be used to power making the product. The same way natural gas plants provide the power to produce natural gas. And in the end, Hydrogen doesn't generate Carbon when burned, which is the whole point of the issue. Gasoline is made very cheaply now but more than a century ago was very expensive. I expect the same process could happen with Hydrogen.

[missingnocchi]

Right. I don't claim to be an expert, but the fact is that Hydrogen is burned as a fuel. And also making gasoline requires external energy. They have refineries for that. The only fuel that I am aware of that comes straight out of the ground would be natural gas. And as is the case with gasoline, the product itself can be used to power making the product. The same way natural gas plants provide the power to produce natural gas. And in the end, Hydrogen doesn't generate Carbon when burned, which is the whole point of the issue. Gasoline is made very cheaply now but more than a century ago was very expensive. I expect the same process could happen with Hydrogen.

Hydrogen may not produce carbon when burned, but natural gas consists primarily of methane, CH4. I don't know the exact process, but I do know how redox reactions work, and my guess is that the H4 is reduced to 2H2 while the C is oxidized to CO2 (carbon dioxide). In the end, hydrogen fuel is just another curtain the industry uses to hide environmentally damaging processes, like how the electricity used to run your Model S probably comes from coal.

[stromboli]

And Hydrogen can also be made from sea water. submarines like the one I was on use purified sea water to make oxygen and vent Hydrogen overboard. No doubt there are other processes to procure it. It is an old technology that can be refined and made better. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, so I'm sure we can manage to come up with a way to use it safely and cheaply for fuel. We did the same with oil into gasoline.

[missingnocchi]

And Hydrogen can also be made from sea water. submarines like the one I was on use purified sea water to make oxygen and vent Hydrogen overboard. No doubt there are other processes to procure it. It is an old technology that can be refined and made better. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, so I'm sure we can manage to come up with a way to use it safely and cheaply for fuel. We did the same with oil into gasoline.

H2O has a lower free energy level than its products though, which means extremely high temperatures are required to produce the H2. How do you suppose those temperatures were attained? My guess is they burned something, probably a hydrocarbon.

[Baruch]

1. I served aboard ship that routinely made oxygen from sea water. The byproduct was Hydrogen. That is very old technology, circa 1960. Honda is now in the process of establishing Hydrogen fuel stations for a Hydrogen powered car.

2. Honda has a hydrogen powered car
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/fuel-cell-evolution.aspx

whether you want to consider that as "freely available" or not, it is certainly abundant. And Hydrogen in the form of a fuel cell is also old technology; the fuel cell was the issue, solved for the most part by Honda.

Maybe I'm ignorant of the energy methodology of how Hydrogen runs a car, but it has to do with combustion and we aren't combusting gasoline. And it does constitute a clean alternative to fossil fuels.

A fuel cell is real ... but doesn't change the thermodynamics.  You have to put in more energy (even if you count the energy cost of producing fuel cells) than you get out.  And getting the oxygen out with the hydrogen, can be a benefit on its own.  My description of the technology was incomplete ... but still correct as far as power generation goes.  If in addition, you are using nuclear power or electricity from nuclear power, aboard a submarine ... then the energy is still un-free ... because nuclear is un-free.  There is no free lunch, not even with solar/wind.  It takes energy to produce solar panels, photovoltaic or wind turbines.