Why trying to help poor countries might actually hurt them

[Baruch]

"The problem with dictators is they don't know when to quit. That's why democracy is preferable, not that's perfect but it allows a bloodless transition of power." ... I agree completely.  But preferring democratic crime to tyrannical crime ... says less than it seems to.

[josephpalazzo]

"The problem with dictators is they don't know when to quit. That's why democracy is preferable, not that's perfect but it allows a bloodless transition of power." ... I agree completely.  But preferring democratic crime to tyrannical crime ... says less than it seems to.

There's more to life than just crime, otherwise we would all be cavemen, clubbing each other to get the females in our caves. Democracy also means 1) rule of law, 2)constitutional individual rights, and 3) a secular government. You might consider me as a mouthpiece for Western civilization, but in spite of all its imperfections, I prefer it to any other civilization, present and past.

[Baruch]

There's more to life than just crime, otherwise we would all be cavemen, clubbing each other to get the females in our caves. Democracy also means 1) rule of law, 2)constitutional individual rights, and 3) a secular government. You might consider me as a mouthpiece for Western civilization, but in spite of all its imperfections, I prefer it to any other civilization, present and past.

But we are all cave men, just ask the feminists who post here ;-)  You have great Civics 101 quotes ... to bad it is all false.  And of course, given we don't know any better, everyone prefers their own country and time period.

[josephpalazzo]

But we are all cave men, just ask the feminists who post here ;-)  You have great Civics 101 quotes ... to bad it is all false.  And of course, given we don't know any better, everyone prefers their own country and time period.

You confuse what's in practice and what's in theory. We might not have perfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism in practice but we have it in theory. Now imagine those countries who don't even have those in theory. That's why generally speaking, the people leave those countries who don't have them for countries that have them. I'd rather have imperfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism than nothing but brutal repression/dictatorship.

[Baruch]

You confuse what's in practice and what's in theory. We might not have perfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism in practice but we have it in theory. Now imagine those countries who don't even have those in theory. That's why generally speaking, the people leave those countries who don't have them for countries that have them. I'd rather have imperfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism than nothing but brutal repression/dictatorship.

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Funny thing. Image that you live in a place where your leaders are pretty much assholes, but your personal life and affairs are left alone and you can feed your family. Along comes someone to invade your country, someone who almost never has a war where they come from, but brings it to your country and it goes on and on and on for years. You have a shot at getting out of the place where it's never ending war and your choices are to a country where another asshole rules and where you can pretty much be assured of being treated like shit the rest of your life of you can go to the country that is importing war to your country and live pretty good. It's not a tough choice to make.

[josephpalazzo]

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

And where do you prefer to live - imperfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism USA or brutal repression/dictatorship Syria?

[Baruch]

If I were a Syrian patriot, I know what my answer would be ... as long as hope held out.  But as per my immigrant ancestors, if there was no hope, you have to think of the children.  But America?  Maybe not, there is more than one First World country.  In cartoons we can sometimes deal with things we can't do otherwise.  In the anime cartoon Hitalia ... the character of the American is always an overbearing egomaniac ... maybe that isn't the best model?  Hitalia is an attempt by the Japanese to deal with WW II on a child-like level, and even handedly.  I suspect that Japanese children have greatest sympathy for the character of the Japanese guy ;-)

[josephpalazzo]

And where do you prefer to live - imperfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism USA or brutal repression/dictatorship Syria?

If I were a Syrian patriot, I know what my answer would be ... as long as hope held out.  But as per my immigrant ancestors, if there was no hope, you have to think of the children.  But America?  Maybe not, there is more than one First World country.  In cartoons we can sometimes deal with things we can't do otherwise.  In the anime cartoon Hitalia ... the character of the American is always an overbearing egomaniac ... maybe that isn't the best model?  Hitalia is an attempt by the Japanese to deal with WW II on a child-like level, and even handedly.  I suspect that Japanese children have greatest sympathy for the character of the Japanese guy ;-)

My question did not presuppose that you could be a Syrian patriot, so stop dodging the question. BTW, many Syrian patriots would jump on the first flight to the USA if they were allowed to. In general, people want stability so that they can live their "normal" lives, whatever their culture has defined as being normal. Repression in Syria led to the present situation, and the West looks pretty good for Syrians fleeing from a war torn country. Anyway, your dodging the question is an indication of your refusal to examine your premises. You should consider that such denial can be harmful to yourself.

[Baruch]

i can imagine waking up tomorrow in the body of another person, of different nationality, sex, race, language etc ... and dealing with it as a fact on the ground.  Would your chauvinism just leave you peeing your pants?  Of course, as an American, if one has to be a chauvinist, one would best do American chauvinism ;-)  But most posters here are not American ... so I am fine if  they toot their own horns ... as I am fine with you too.

[josephpalazzo]

i can imagine waking up tomorrow in the body of another person, of different nationality, sex, race, language etc ... and dealing with it as a fact on the ground.  Would your chauvinism just leave you peeing your pants?  Of course, as an American, if one has to be a chauvinist, one would best do American chauvinism ;-)  But most posters here are not American ... so I am fine if  they toot their own horns ... as I am fine with you too.

I wasn't talking about nationalism in which the word "chauvinism" would apply, I was talking about  imperfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism versus brutal repression/dictatorship. Using the US for the former, and Syria for the latter was not important, I just chose those two to make it more close to current events. As usually, you totally missed the point.

[Baruch]

I wasn't talking about nationalism in which the word "chauvinism" would apply, I was talking about  imperfect democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism versus brutal repression/dictatorship. Using the US for the former, and Syria for the latter was not important, I just chose those two to make it more close to current events. As usually, you totally missed the point.

You did successfully clarify your point ... on second attempt ;-)

[josephpalazzo]

You did successfully clarify your point ... on second attempt ;-)

So my guess is that you choose Syria. If I knew you personally, I would fork out the money and buy you the plane ticket to Syria, one way please as I doubt very much you would need a return ticket...

[Baruch]

So my guess is that you choose Syria. If I knew you personally, I would fork out the money and buy you the plane ticket to Syria, one way please as I doubt very much you would need a return ticket...

I am not Syrian ... I put it out as a hypothetical.  My daughter once knew a young Christian man from Syria ... and he didn't seem particularly horrible.  And no, neither you nor anyone else knows anyone on the Internet, personally ... as a rule.  Our positions aren't as far apart as our means of talking about them ;-)

Or are you concerned that all Jews are Israelis or all Jews are stateless or some other anachronistic false charge?  That may be Pr126 though.  It seems to me that your politics is like a Notre Dame football fan ... where even when the quarterback throws an interception, it is still a good play, just because it was the Notre Dame football team that made it.  My mother is like that every game day with our favorite team.  It is a horror, if I even notice, let alone comment, that our favorite team made a bad play, or the other team made a good one.

[josephpalazzo]

I am not Syrian ... I put it out as a hypothetical.  My daughter once knew a young Christian man from Syria ... and he didn't seem particularly horrible.  And no, neither you nor anyone else knows anyone on the Internet, personally ... as a rule.  Our positions aren't as far apart as our means of talking about them ;-)

Or are you concerned that all Jews are Israelis or all Jews are stateless or some other anachronistic false charge?  That may be Pr126 though.  It seems to me that your politics is like a Notre Dame football fan ... where even when the quarterback throws an interception, it is still a good play, just because it was the Notre Dame football team that made it.  My mother is like that every game day with our favorite team.  It is a horror, if I even notice, let alone comment, that our favorite team made a bad play, or the other team made a good one.

Well, you didn't answer my question, and like the old saying, "if you don't answer, someone else will", so I answered the question for you.

I didn't say that Syrians are bad, but you do know that the country is devastated, or do you live in a complete bubble?

Football stinks, but I am a staunch supporter of democracy/ruleoflaw/humanrights/secularism. Even if it's imperfect, I'll choose that to brutal repression/dictatorship any time of the day. Unlike you, I know  what team I am on.