Tolerance: Muslims Versus Jews

[Mike Cl]

The native americans along with the australian aborigines, if left alone would have accomplished….nothing. Just as today in little african or south american spots where never before seen tribes are being still "found" they have yet to come up with anything beyond a bow or a blow-"gun".  The aborigines remained stagnant for 35,000 years, the american natives, it is suggested around 15,000, they never did shit.

The entirety of modern civilization as we all understand it to be is the result of war. War drove technologies and inventions and that which wasn't driven by war was appropriated for it. Civilizations that had no contact with other civilizations do nothing but remain stagnant.

I used to think quite a bit like that.  Then I begin to wonder.  What does 'accomplished' mean?  What is it that most people today want?  I'd suggest that most everybody wants to have a family, friends, live in peace and be able to do what they like to make a living.  If that can be done in an aboriginal setting, why is that inferior to my being able to do it in the USA in 2015?  By what right do we have to judge?  What does 'stagnant' mean?  Who judges that?  Maybe we, as modern people, are living with too much change?  Maybe we will change our way into oblivion because we can't control it?  Why are our solutions to life's problems the only or the best ones?  Hell, our society has been only a few finger pushes (the fire buttons on ICBM's) from being returned to a worse than stagnant society.  We have enough nukes out there that it could still happen several times over.  We don't know the outcome of our modern technology or 'modern' thought.  Maybe stagnant was the way to go.  Maybe that would lead to a more safe and sane approach to technology.  In geological terms, 35,000 years is only yesterday.  Why must we run head long into a new, bright and shinny future?  (And remember to read your Furture Shock children) 

Understand, I am not suggesting that I am against technology.    Hell damn no!  I love my life now and as I have lived it.  (Love my video games!!!  Long live the PC!!!) But that does not mean that others have to share my opinion.  Or my way of life.  Stagnant may be the way to go.  And who is to say that would not accomplish the most in the long run????

[aitm]

They had that right because they could do it and they did.  Morality did not figure in--their might gave them that right.  Is that how it should be?  Should the strongest just take?

So what? Really! SO FUCKING WHAT? The history of the world is exactly that! Every mother fucking page of history is the strong taking from the weak. Did "we" all of a sudden start it? Hell no! Did we invent it? Fuck no. Did we perfect it? NO! This is the history of the mother fucking world. In the americas long before the white man showed up the navajoes were butchering the apaches at the stake, they were not some mother fucking noble warrior like a mother fucking disney movie. The cherokees were standing the Iroquois on a pole over hot coals shooting arrows in their arms and legs, not enough to kill them, just enough to fucking torture them.

You want a government to apologize to some people that we interrupted their way of life by prohibiting them from skinning other humans? What year is this again?

[Mike Cl]

Maybe they could have but they did not. So to call it the biggest genocide of history is false. Because we know the disease was probably the biggest killer since epidemics travel much faster than their primitive armies.

Very, very true.  But should we not also acknowledge that genocide did occur, no matter what it's size? 

[drunkenshoe]

To be honest, the Aztecs and Incas in particular were rather notorious.

It was like they were the Romans, or any other aggressive conquering power where the vanquished held a deep resentment. This is why the Spaniards had such an easy time gathering allies among various city states and other affiliates. As the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy..."

Before the Spaniards arrived, capturing people for the purpose of human sacrifice was a very lucrative business in Mesoamerica, as there was plenty of clout to be had for those who were good at it. It wasn't enough to just sacrifice prisoners of war, many were unfortunate souls who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. No wonder there was so much resentment.

It might be tough to admit, but these people weren't actually all that much different then the rest of us. They achieved some absolutely amazing things, but they definitely had issues.

Why would you even think that I thought that they were different than us? Or any human is. I haven't said or even implied anything of the sort. Is that even a fact anyone here would bother to present as an extra under normal circumstances? No. Why would it be tough? What does it have to do with it at all?

What does even "they were as bad as other humans" mean? What kind of a twisted bullshit logic is that?

I just reacted to normalising an unrecognised genocide that went on hundreds of years by saying 'they were equally vicious' (?) out of nowhere, because someone expressed an anachronistic thought, something like "it would be interesting to watch what would happen if Europans got drowned on the way and America wasn't even touched".

Nobody got drowned, they annihilated people and their culture. It already happened. If you are getting back to that with a bullshit statement of 'they were equally vicious and if you do not think that you are unrealistic and idealising natives" AND calling that these poeple being human as much the other 'a fact', you are trying to normalise genocide and miserably failing at it.

They had issues? What does this even mean? Is there a place or a country or a culture that doesn't/didn't have issues? Almost every soverign country is guilty of genocide. More, the criteria depends on political power, not what happens to people in reality.

[aitm]

What does 'accomplished' mean?  What is it that most people today want?   Maybe stagnant was the way to go.   

Mike, I appreciate what you are suggesting. Really. But the proverbial cat is out of the bag. It's a little to late for that. We are at where we are at. Either the world goes forward, stays the same or just keeps fucking itself.

[drunkenshoe]

So what? Really! SO FUCKING WHAT? The history of the world is exactly that! Every mother fucking page of history is the strong taking from the weak. Did "we" all of a sudden start it? Hell no! Did we invent it? Fuck no. Did we perfect it? NO! This is the history of the mother fucking world. In the americas long before the white man showed up the navajoes were butchering the apaches at the stake, they were not some mother fucking noble warrior like a mother fucking disney movie. The cherokees were standing the Iroquois on a pole over hot coals shooting arrows in their arms and legs, not enough to kill them, just enough to fucking torture them.

US you have been making benefit and profit around genocide politics for over 70 years, aitm. It's a many faced industry for the US to make money and politics. The whole American invasions and propaganda is based on genocides and dictators killing people around the world.

Holocaust is the first one...

You want a government to apologize to some people that we interrupted their way of life by prohibiting them from skinning other humans? What year is this again?

American governments refuse to apologise officially or recognise the genocide, because if they do, they would have to pay compensation and give land. Exactly why Turkey refuses to recognise the genocide. Because it costs huge money and land.

[aitm]

Ha! I guess staying the same and keeps fucking itself is rather the same thing. meh. You know what I mean.

[Mike Cl]

So what? Really! SO FUCKING WHAT? The history of the world is exactly that! Every mother fucking page of history is the strong taking from the weak. Did "we" all of a sudden start it? Hell no! Did we invent it? Fuck no. Did we perfect it? NO! This is the history of the mother fucking world. In the americas long before the white man showed up the navajoes were butchering the apaches at the stake, they were not some mother fucking noble warrior like a mother fucking disney movie. The cherokees were standing the Iroquois on a pole over hot coals shooting arrows in their arms and legs, not enough to kill them, just enough to fucking torture them.

You want a government to apologize to some people that we interrupted their way of life by prohibiting them from skinning other humans? What year is this again?

Wow!  Got your blood moving, eh??!  Where did I say the Europeans invented might makes right???  I didn't.  Yes, that is what history is.  The history of warfare.  Who killed whom, when, why and how.  That's how we keep track of time.  I don't think you are suggesting that that is the best way to be or that since every body else is doing it, it must be okay?  That is not the aitm I recognize from this board.   

You see, I don't really have many solutions to this.  Recognizing that that is the wrong way for societies to act is a good first step.  Just say what happened without giving any judgement to it.  Just say it in a truthful manner.  Then we can look at it and ask if we want to approach the world in this manner any more.  And begin trying to figure out what to do next and how to do it.  I have no ready made solutions.  I don't know that apologizing matters or would be effective or correct.  But I do know that I am not in favor of using the same old might makes right argument any more.  And no, the Native American societies were not the Golden Societies who reached perfection.  But they were societies.  And I do realize that that was then and this is now--different reasoning and measures were used--and none of it can be taken back and fixed.  But with what happened acknowledged by all, moving forward would be easier.  But I still don't have any solutions.  But I know that as a society we can't fix what we cannot see as even broken.   

[Mike Cl]

Mike, I appreciate what you are suggesting. Really. But the proverbial cat is out of the bag. It's a little to late for that. We are at where we are at. Either the world goes forward, stays the same or just keeps fucking itself.

Yes, the cat is out of the bag, and we cannot begin to put it back in.  We are where we are.  But I would suggest that no many now much about that cat that is now out of the bag.  My suggestion is that we start telling the truth about that cat.  Only that we acknowledge what really happened.  That way we can then make informed decisions about our continued use of the principle of might makes right.  That's all.  Even if I were given the power to do so, I don't know how to fix that problem.  But I think the first step is for all of us to be aware of it.  Without knowing much about that cat that is out of the bag, the world will just keep fucking itself--and without condoms so that we spread the same old diseases we always have.

[aitm]

US you have been making benefit and profit around genocide politics for over 70 years, aitm. It's a many faced industry for the US to make money and politics. The whole American invasions and propaganda is based on genocides and dictators killing people around the world.

what the hell does this have to do with your previous drunken ramble in regards to humanities treatment of humanity over the last 4000 years?

Holocaust is the first one…

really? I would go with Alexander "the great" then maybe Ghengis Khan, but all along there were little fish in little ponds butchering people you never heard about but they….weren't "American" enough for you to whine about eh?

American governments refuse to apologise officially or recognise the genocide, because if they do...

and line them up. 85093235406 places deep in the history of the world of people killing people, the scale is not important the act is. Get off your horse, your own people have no fucking right to pretend to be righteous.

[drunkenshoe]

Jews who died of disease and starvation are counted among the victims of the Holocaust. That's how the numbers of genocide is calculated. Same with the Armenian Genocide...etc.

I don't get how is that it is suddenly a rule that Mesoamerican Genocide death toll shouldn't be calculated withe same criteria.

[aitm]

My suggestion is that we start telling the truth about that cat.  Only that we acknowledge what really happened.

Give the world a start date to admit their errors. And lets be honest, give the world a real start date to admit their errors that have shaped the world from day one. How far back do we go? Are our (American) actions not precipitated by other countries? Did "americans" start WW1, WW2, Korea? Does everybody get to play? Or just us?

[aitm]

That's how the numbers of genocide is calculated.

The standard, usual understanding of the word genocide, your know, what they call "definition" would suggest that genocide means: "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation".

Now of course, your jealousy that you are not Amurican, would suggest that us "amuricans" in the 16, 17 and 18 hundreds should have been fully aware of bacterial and other infections and how they work cause you know….we did it on purpose eh?

[drunkenshoe]

what the hell does this have to do with your previous drunken ramble in regards to humanities treatment of humanity over the last 4000 years?
really? I would go with Alexander "the great" then maybe Ghengis Khan, but all along there were little fish in little ponds butchering people you never heard about but they….weren't "American" enough for you to whine about eh?
and line them up. 85093235406 places deep in the history of the world of people killing people, the scale is not important the act is. Get off your horse, your own people have no fucking right to pretend to be righteous.

What the fuck are you talking about?!

I am NOT refering to my previous post. I am talking about plain traditional American politics.

The whole propaganda from WWII to Communists and Middle Eastern inavsions ARE BASED on the same bullshit.

From Lenin to Saddam, from this to that, every other politics is made around some genocide going on or imaginary mass murder weapons produced to commit genocide.

Calm down.

[Baruch]

Jews who died of disease and starvation are counted among the victims of the Holocaust. That's how the numbers of genocide is calculated. Same with the Armenian Genocide...etc.

I don't get how is that it is suddenly a rule that Mesoamerican Genocide death toll shouldn't be calculated withe same criteria.

When you speak of genocide by Anglophones, to Anglophones ... the protagonist/antagonist position shifts.  We have a terrible time (as others in our position, say Turks regarding Armenians ... it isn't just about compensation, it is also deeply emotional).  Since I am Anglophone, I can speak without personal involvement (and we know I am personally involved in things we dispute and should dispute) about things long ago or far away.  But of course in an American's case, speaking of not only our original criminality, but our current criminality is taboo.  Especially our current criminality (I have never ever denied this).  Why clutch pearls over things that happened long ago?  Because it throws into high relief our current hypocrisy.  It is easy to dismiss hypocrisy, if you aren't the hypocrite (on say Vietnam).  And if one is a member of an "antagonist" position in some current rhetoric (say a German being disingenuous about WW II) then their delusion is even more different from clinical than that of the "protagonist" position (say over bombing Dresden).  As per ancient Greek theater ... the need for catharsis, as well as justice is so great and so cataclysmic in its potential release, by all parties (maybe not sociologists from cultures completely removed) that only Oedipal results can be expected, or even the generational cycle that included Agamemnon.