Tolerance: Muslims Versus Jews

[jonb]

Jonb ... you and I are part of the special relationship more than you realize ;-)  Like brothers who don't quite like each other ... but since 1913 (FedRes and Income Tax as prep for WW I) inseparable ;-)  France was a nice lay, but you can't marry her ;-))  If the West has to go down in flames ... I would rather do it with GB than with anyone else ... felt this way all my Cold War life.  But The Day After and Threads ... are potentially real.  Don't poke the Bear or the Dragon.

If you meet two Englishmen don't trust them. If you find one that you agree with the other one is getting ready to shaft you. It is the basic problem when dealing with democracies about every five years they go back on any agreement they make. Bears and dragons have learnt to distrust us and rightly so. Then even worse there are people like me who's very reason for existence seems to be the enjoyment of poking sleeping giants.

[Baruch]

One thing at a time. Nix Jeb, than see what happens next.

Interesting...

I would like a look at the true accounting books of Harken Oil ... not ;-(  Involved MIT ... so probably CIA money laundering.

[Baruch]

If you meet two Englishmen don't trust them. If you find one that you agree with the other one is getting ready to shaft you. It is the basic problem when dealing with democracies about every five years they go back on any agreement they make. Bears and dragons have learnt to distrust us and rightly so. Then even worse there are people like me who's very reason for existence seems to be the enjoyment of poking sleeping giants.

See stone giant scene-cut at the end of the preview ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmostC1o7dk

My daughter's god-father is a Jones, and the Jones family are descendants of the Lady of the Lake.  I am a descendant of Vortigern myself, the early employer of Merlin of Carmarthen.  And you don't believe in magic?

[josephpalazzo]

I would like a look at the true accounting books of Harken Oil ... not ;-(  Involved MIT ... so probably CIA money laundering.

Martha Stewart paid her price in jail for insider trading. George W escaped that only because his father was vice-president (then president) at the time. It pays to have connection in higher places.

[Baruch]

Martha Stewart paid her price in jail for insider trading. George W escaped that only because his father was vice-president (then president) at the time. It pays to have connection in higher places.

Telling an un-truth and lying are not the same.  Martha Stewart was caught lying to the FBI ... she wasn't as clever ... or as well connected.  If someone seriously investigated Harken ... or BCCI ... I think one wouldn't have long to live.  Mexican drug cartels have nothing on other long standing crime families.

[josephpalazzo]

Telling an un-truth and lying are not the same.  Martha Stewart was caught lying to the FBI ... she wasn't as clever ... or as well connected.  If someone seriously investigated Harken ... or BCCI ... I think one wouldn't have long to live.  Mexican drug cartels have nothing on other long standing crime families.

I'm not sure where the conspiracy is with Harken (or BCCI). Where is the evidence? I can see Bush father, having  been the director of the CIA for a number of years, asking a CIA agent for a personal favor to get his son out of trouble. But that is far from a conspiracy - though admittedly it would give fodder to Conspiracy theorists like you.

[mauricio]

You say--To me ideals are a beacon, something to strive for and to guide your way, but should never be held dogmatically and never imposed on others without reason. I wholeheartedly agree. 

But when you say-- And also we should recognize that against objective reality many of our ideals are meaningless, since they are mainly centered around our subjective concerns.  I say, wait a moment.  We do need to be aware of the realities of the world--fully aware.  But we should not resign ourselves to them.  Yes, we have to act upon those realities.  But we need not disregard our ideals to do that.  I ideals are never meaningless.  It was a reality that in the 50's in the South that Negros (they were not Blacks, then) we at the bottom of the pile and at the back of the bus in all respects.  That was objective reality--and had been since they arrived on these shores.  Yet, the ideal of actual freedom was still present.  Rosa Parks found that one day, the Zeitgeist of that particular moment was such that an ideal broke through.  This was not the first time Rosa or others had done what she did.  And not the last.  It was, however, a time when an objective state gave way to an ideal.  One cannot predict when that will happen.  It just does.  So, I see that as a reason not to give up our ideals.  For if we do, and submit to the objective reality of the times, those objective times will last forever.  What I regard as an ideal will take a long, long time to come to pass (if ever), but that does not mean I have to just give up.

what I meant is that reality might not line up with our ideals, because they are derived from our individual or human preferences. We may desire safety and we should strive for it, but maybe struggle is a fundamental aspect of life. Living things tend to grow and need more resources, this is the cause of much suffering (disease/war/depredation). Maybe after we consolidate the control of our planet and find peace between our populations and we get rid of virus and bacteria and other lifeforms that harms us, we will still grow since that is our biological imperative (thought we could completely change our nature) and we will expand to other planets for more resources. There we might find ourselves in a new galactic struggle with other forms of life or being. If we don't struggle and come on top we will be left behind like many other lifeforms before us. Of course we should not give up on our ideals at the first sign of trouble, but we should always be skeptical of them in order to not find ourselves clinging on them merely on emotion or blind faith and dying the worthless dead of a martyr.

[Baruch]

I'm not sure where the conspiracy is with Harken (or BCCI). Where is the evidence? I can see Bush father, having  been the director of the CIA for a number of years, asking a CIA agent for a personal favor to get his son out of trouble. But that is far from a conspiracy - though admittedly it would give fodder to Conspiracy theorists like you.

There is no evil or communication in the world.  So there are no evil doers, and even if they were, they couldn't communicate.  Are you related to Zeno of Elea?

[josephpalazzo]

There is no evil or communication in the world.  So there are no evil doers, and even if they were, they couldn't communicate.

The question is not about evil communication, but evidence of your alleged conspiracy. Why don't you admit you have no evidence whatsoever and make it easy on you?

Are you related to Zeno of Elea?

Zeno was disproved with the invention of calculus, about 250 years ago. Get with the program.

[Baruch]

The question is not about evil communication, but evidence of your alleged conspiracy. Why don't you admit you have no evidence whatsoever and make it easy on you?

Zeno was disproved with the invention of calculus, about 250 years ago. Get with the program.

I was alluding to reductio ad absurdum ... the original (and negative use of logic).  Of course Zeno wasn't the only classic times user to use this ... but sometimes the absurd is simply absurd, it doesn't prove anything.  Keep on worshipping the chief alchemist of England ;-)

[josephpalazzo]

I was alluding to reductio ad absurdum ... the original (and negative use of logic).  Of course Zeno wasn't the only classic times user to use this ... but sometimes the absurd is simply absurd, it doesn't prove anything.  Keep on worshipping the chief alchemist of England ;-)

Do you know how many theists have to come to this forum? All of them, when asked "where's the evidence that supports your beliefs", they inevitably end up like you, evading the question with some mumbo-jumbo rhetoric. When put to the task, you have no evidence of this conspiracy, just a bunch of unrelated suspicions which with $1.95 will buy you a coffee at Starbuck.

[Mike Cl]

what I meant is that reality might not line up with our ideals, because they are derived from our individual or human preferences. We may desire safety and we should strive for it, but maybe struggle is a fundamental aspect of life. Living things tend to grow and need more resources, this is the cause of much suffering (disease/war/depredation). Maybe after we consolidate the control of our planet and find peace between our populations and we get rid of virus and bacteria and other lifeforms that harms us, we will still grow since that is our biological imperative (thought we could completely change our nature) and we will expand to other planets for more resources. There we might find ourselves in a new galactic struggle with other forms of life or being. If we don't struggle and come on top we will be left behind like many other lifeforms before us. Of course we should not give up on our ideals at the first sign of trouble, but we should always be skeptical of them in order to not find ourselves clinging on them merely on emotion or blind faith and dying the worthless dead of a martyr.

All of that is true.  One thing is certain--we do not have a clue as to the future and what it will bring.  If all of your ideas are fully grounded in 'reality', you will still get the future wrong.  Standing in 1950, looking toward 2015, could you with all the reality and objectivity you could command, know what 2015 would look like?  Of course not--nobody told us what 2015 would look like or feel like.  Just look at a simply thing as the black cradle phone--who could have predicted what they are like today?

On the other hand, ideals are the exact same thing.  You have an ideal (or anybody), and you cling to it like it is life itself.  You bend your every waking moment to making it work.  Can you predict when or if your ideal will be realized?  No a chance.  Can you envision what your ideal will even look like?  Not a chance.  One thing we do know--it will not be exactly as you envision it. 

So, should we get rid or ignore the 'objective' evidence we have or abandon or not even bother having an ideal?  No.  For that is all we can do at this point (or any point) is to be as objective as we can (and nobody can be totally objective) and build and hold to our ideas as best we can--but not be shackled to either.  We always have to leave room to 'roll with the punches' and make the best of what has just happened. 

So, I have my ideal world and a feel for what can be and should be.  I also realize that that will change with time.  It always has.  And it always will.  But I still have an ideal.

[Baruch]

Do you know how many theists have to come to this forum? All of them, when asked "where's the evidence that supports your beliefs", they inevitably end up like you, evading the question with some mumbo-jumbo rhetoric. When put to the task, you have no evidence of this conspiracy, just a bunch of unrelated suspicions which with $1.95 will buy you a coffee at Starbuck.

If you can't distinguish one theist from another ... and I am not at all like the others ... that is your problem, not mine.  Go slay some other dragon, save some other virgin maid.

[josephpalazzo]

If you can't distinguish one theist from another ... and I am not at all like the others ...

Well that's it, you haven't distinguished yourself... you're just another cat with a different fur color, but still a cat.

[Baruch]

Well that's it, you haven't distinguished yourself... you're just another cat with a different fur color, but still a cat.

Thanks for the praise ... I like cats ;-)