Don't Crucify the Messenger

[Mike Cl]

It is irrelevant whether they literally lived as individual humans, but who exactly are we talking about because we can disprove one or even some, but not all. However, what makes you think they didn't have any positive impact that benefited humanity? A bias perhaps?

Of course, I'm bias.  But that bias came from study.  I am specifically speaking of Jesus.  I don't see how anybody who reads the evidence about Jesus' 'life' can really think he was an actual person.  So, to say that he 'taught' peace is simply putting your own wishes or spin on it.  Jesus can be made to say many things, some of which is not peaceful.  So, those who crafted the life of Jesus were skillful, I will admit.  But not as skillful as some may think.  The only 'witness' for Jesus and his teachings is the bible.  And the bible is not one book, but a collection of writings.  Who chose what writings to make up the bible is a convoluted history (which is what makes it interesting).  And there is a huge body of writings that was left over, some of which is still in existence and some we know of by name only.  And the 'bible' even now is not one set collection of writings.  There are many different versions, all of which are different, for different denominations.  This all really suggests politics and control--which leads to riches for the few.  For me, I think our history would have been gentler and kinder without  Christianity being in existence at all.

[WanderingWonderer]

Of course, I'm bias.  But that bias came from study.  I am specifically speaking of Jesus.  I don't see how anybody who reads the evidence about Jesus' 'life' can really think he was an actual person.  So, to say that he 'taught' peace is simply putting your own wishes or spin on it.  Jesus can be made to say many things, some of which is not peaceful.  So, those who crafted the life of Jesus were skillful, I will admit.  But not as skillful as some may think.  The only 'witness' for Jesus and his teachings is the bible.  And the bible is not one book, but a collection of writings.  Who chose what writings to make up the bible is a convoluted history (which is what makes it interesting).  And there is a huge body of writings that was left over, some of which is still in existence and some we know of by name only.  And the 'bible' even now is not one set collection of writings.  There are many different versions, all of which are different, for different denominations.  This all really suggests politics and control--which leads to riches for the few.  For me, I think our history would have been gentler and kinder without  Christianity being in existence at all.

You can't truthfully perceive what the past might have been without Christianity or without Christ, which are two different things. Either way we have a religion where they praise a man, but forget the power he said we have as well. Whether you believe or not, you can read the teachings of Christ and see the merit in being like him. For most people's ultimate wish of peace, we should praise those who do their path justice by way of righteousness. I don't think you need religion to be righteous or even God, but it isn't righteous to condemn the path because the path is just the vehicle and the individual drives. With that said, righteousness is telling the individual to watch the damn road.

[Mike Cl]

You can't truthfully perceive what the past might have been without Christianity or without Christ, which are two different things. Either way we have a religion where they praise a man, but forget the power he said we have as well. Whether you believe or not, you can read the teachings of Christ and see the merit in being like him. For most people's ultimate wish of peace, we should praise those who do their path justice by way of righteousness. I don't think you need religion to be righteous or even God, but it isn't righteous to condemn the path because the path is just the vehicle and the individual drives. With that said, righteousness is telling the individual to watch the damn road.

I'm happy that you have found a way to pave a path for yourself.  But that is a path of your own construction.  Others can read the bible and get a different way of reading it.  To tell the truth, I have read the bible and the 'message' of Jesus and found it totally mixed.  Yes, there are good things there--in Jesus' teachings and the bible.  But there are horrid things as well.  Plus, you 'righteous' act may not fit what I think of as 'righteous'--in other words that is a self defined term--each of us defines it differently.  There is no universal 'righteous' act.

[WanderingWonderer]

I'm happy that you have found a way to pave a path for yourself.  But that is a path of your own construction.  Others can read the bible and get a different way of reading it.  To tell the truth, I have read the bible and the 'message' of Jesus and found it totally mixed.  Yes, there are good things there--in Jesus' teachings and the bible.  But there are horrid things as well.  Plus, you 'righteous' act may not fit what I think of as 'righteous'--in other words that is a self defined term--each of us defines it differently.  There is no universal 'righteous' act.

His teachings are not mixed if you have an open mind to what is being said. Most Christians overlook or misunderstanding the messages.

[Baruch]

You're marginalizing revolutionaries because of your beliefs, and not because they weren't important.

Generally speaking, revolutionaries are bad people, including American ones.  Just ask King George.

And no, I am not marginalizing.  Actual shamans are incredibly important people, bearers of magic ... though they often go by other names now, like politician, psychologist and economist.  The most powerful of all people, are fictional people, because historical or not ... people project their hopes and fears onto them, just like in Freudian psychology.  Dr Freud got part of his ideas from Jewish exorcism.  Great religious prophets are just such shamen.

[aitm]

His teachings are not mixed if you have an open mind to what is being said. Most Christians overlook or misunderstanding the messages.

well you have to admit that when the grand creator of the universe cannot get simple minded humans to understand a rather simple book…..well there are only a few obvious conclusions.

[jonb]

well you have to admit that when the grand creator of the universe cannot get simple minded humans to understand a rather simple book…..well there are only a few obvious conclusions.

Now don't tell me I am sure I can get this one if I think. . . . .










Is it that the one with the mind open enough to understand it is-. . . .erm. ... give me a moment. . . . . .








The Chosen One?

[Baruch]

That is a pretty good answer ... if you are Elmer Gantry.

In Kabbalah it is taught that G-d messed up ... there wasn't supposed to be any creation in the first place, but G-d had a senior moment (stinks when you are infinity old yes?).  And any concept that G-d will use monkeys as the chosen mammal ... is only true if you worship Hanuman.

[WanderingWonderer]

well you have to admit that when the grand creator of the universe cannot get simple minded humans to understand a rather simple book…..well there are only a few obvious conclusions.

My belief is that there is no actual separation between creation and the creator, and that "we are the eyes and ears of God". Therefore, our interpretation of this reality is a fragment of universal understanding, and to see more, we must look, listen, and think in all directions. In that search, common trends emerge like adaptation, duality, and harmony. The potential of humanity is crippled by a lack of acceptance that these natural trends are ruling factors for our behavior as well, or at least how we should try to be. Harmony is one of the worst because we tend to want it on our terms rather than taking it as it comes. In my search for higher understanding, I came back to the bible which I learned to despise and was able to see new truths I hadn't allowed myself to see before. Everyone can do this, but it is a matter of choice.

[WanderingWonderer]

As a fan of comparative religion ... I would reply ... shamans are for the long haul ... they are the "real thing" not Coca Cola.

All people are to some degree, mentally ill.  And most of us are recovered ... so most of us match the definition of a shaman ... we just don't rattle human bone rattles in public ;-)

It's funny that you mention mental illness. It is my understanding that when the illusions of our world fall away, it's common to lose your head. In other cultures they nurture and guide the mad because they believe they are waking up to a new and beneficial realization. It is no surprise to me that deprivation and suffering are used as tools for higher understanding because of the havoc they cause on perception. Hallucinogenics also alter perception, and therefore, can be beneficial if used appropriately.

[WanderingWonderer]

Yes, do what is right for you ... mostly.  This is why I can't get into proselytizing ... even if I thought the world was coming to an end, like Paul of Tarsus ... I am not sure that is a bad thing, and I am not sure you aren't going to get what you have richly earned ;-)

Not only do people believe the end is near, but also they want it. I would Argue that many atheists want it too, but what if that focus is exactly what causes our demise? What if we chose to focus on improvement rather than destruction?

[WanderingWonderer]

How did Moses' detailed instructions on how to sacrifice animals better humanity?

Yes, there are errors along the way, but not without improvements along the way. Christ said nothing foul about homosexuals, never encouraged slavery, and commanded the abolition of animal sacrifice.

[WanderingWonderer]

Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=merit

Praise and reward are not things I strive for.

It says "deserving of", not "requiring". The reference is to the acquisition of badges like in the boy scouts or military, but merit often goes without "praise or reward".

[WanderingWonderer]

It takes all kinds.  I am like you, I have never understood how anything beyond me knowing my faults or me knowing the satisfaction of something accomplished ... can be bettered by having other people get involved.  But then I will never be a salesman or a politician.

The feedback, good or bad, helps us grow.

[WanderingWonderer]

Generally speaking, revolutionaries are bad people, including American ones.  Just ask King George.

And no, I am not marginalizing.  Actual shamans are incredibly important people, bearers of magic ... though they often go by other names now, like politician, psychologist and economist.  The most powerful of all people, are fictional people, because historical or not ... people project their hopes and fears onto them, just like in Freudian psychology.  Dr Freud got part of his ideas from Jewish exorcism.  Great religious prophets are just such shamen.

Who says revolutionaries are bad? It's possible, but certainly not a requirement. The middle east was revolutionized in many ways by the Christ archetype by the same methodology that scientific revolutionaries use. It's a matter of broadening one's perspective to allow new information in, and then sharing that information for the sake of mass enlightenment.