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Don't Crucify the Messenger

Started by WanderingWonderer, October 10, 2015, 12:40:31 PM

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WanderingWonderer

The common actions, traits, and teachings of the alleged prophets, messiahs, avatars, gurus, yogis, shamans, and saints represents an archetype that changed humanity in some way for the better. They represented humility, equality, generosity, and wisdom.

Alas, no matter how good they were, they would still die, and their followers would quickly go astray and create religions. We have gained a lot of ground, though, and I think it's wise to recognize that.

Baruch

As a fan of comparative religion ... I would reply ... shamans are for the long haul ... they are the "real thing" not Coca Cola.

All people are to some degree, mentally ill.  And most of us are recovered ... so most of us match the definition of a shaman ... we just don't rattle human bone rattles in public ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

jonb

Quote from: WanderingWonderer on October 10, 2015, 12:40:31 PM
The common actions, traits, and teachings of the alleged prophets, messiahs, avatars, gurus, yogis, shamans, and saints represents an archetype that changed humanity in some way for the better. They represented humility, equality, generosity, and wisdom.

Alas, no matter how good they were, they would still die, and their followers would quickly go astray and create religions. We have gained a lot of ground, though, and I think it's wise to recognize that.

Not for me, they always require me to suspend my doubt to follow them, and that intellectual suicide costs far more than any benefit they have ever offered.

Baruch

Yes, do what is right for you ... mostly.  This is why I can't get into proselytizing ... even if I thought the world was coming to an end, like Paul of Tarsus ... I am not sure that is a bad thing, and I am not sure you aren't going to get what you have richly earned ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

WanderingWonderer

Quote from: jonb on October 10, 2015, 12:55:29 PM
Not for me, they always require me to suspend my doubt to follow them, and that intellectual suicide costs far more than any benefit they have ever offered.
I believe you can be skeptical without being doubtful, and being doubtful can make you susceptible to placing limitations on your perspective. Reason isn't the only reason atheists defend reason on the internet. Ego is obviously in play. I think that striving for understanding rather than being satisfied with our level of enlightenment could actually have the core results we all hope for. We have to be skeptical, but we have to be curious too.

jonb

Quote from: WanderingWonderer on October 10, 2015, 01:10:50 PM
I believe you can be skeptical without being doubtful, and being doubtful can make you susceptible to placing limitations on your perspective. Reason isn't the only reason atheists defend reason on the internet. Ego is obviously in play. I think that striving for understanding rather than being satisfied with our level of enlightenment could actually have the core results we all hope for. We have to be skeptical, but we have to be curious too.

The realisation that we are inherently susceptible leads it seems to me, for most to the desire for control, often to control others, or by being part of something bigger than themselves. I find it quite easy to doubt and be curious at one and the same time.

Hijiri Byakuren

How did Moses' detailed instructions on how to sacrifice animals better humanity?
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

CrucifyCindy

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on October 10, 2015, 01:39:37 PM
How did Moses' detailed instructions on how to sacrifice animals better humanity?

Well before Moses they were doing it wrong.
“Rational thought is a failed experiment and should be phased out.”
 William S. Burroughs

حسن اÙ,,صباح - Ù,,يس هناك Ù...ا هو صحيح ØŒ ÙƒÙ,, شيء Ù...سÙ...وح به

WanderingWonderer

Quote from: jonb on October 10, 2015, 01:33:08 PM
The realisation that we are inherently susceptible leads it seems to me, for most to the desire for control, often to control others, or by being part of something bigger than themselves. I find it quite easy to doubt and be curious at one and the same time.
The ease of a perspective says nothing of its merit.

jonb

Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=merit

Praise and reward are not things I strive for.

Baruch

Quote from: jonb on October 10, 2015, 02:56:48 PM
Merit: the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=merit

Praise and reward are not things I strive for.

It takes all kinds.  I am like you, I have never understood how anything beyond me knowing my faults or me knowing the satisfaction of something accomplished ... can be bettered by having other people get involved.  But then I will never be a salesman or a politician.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: WanderingWonderer on October 10, 2015, 12:40:31 PM
The common actions, traits, and teachings of the alleged prophets, messiahs, avatars, gurus, yogis, shamans, and saints represents an archetype that changed humanity in some way for the better. They represented humility, equality, generosity, and wisdom.

Alas, no matter how good they were, they would still die, and their followers would quickly go astray and create religions. We have gained a lot of ground, though, and I think it's wise to recognize that.
Yeah, well maybe.  You are assuming that they all actually lived.  If so, why do you make that assumption?  And was that change for the better?  And by whose standards?  Like you I used to think this:"Alas, no matter how good they were, they would still die, and their followers would quickly go astray and create religions."  But I don't think they lived.  You see, I was curious and skeptical and did some research.  I could not find any evidence that they lived.  So, who then, created them?  And for what purpose?  I also don't think we, as a species, are better off for having those 'avatars' created and foisted upon us. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Yes and no.  Whatever one might think of the ontology of such people ... are they just ordinary people, are they something more than ordinary people ... such people existed, exist now, and will continue to exist.  They may or may not gather followers, just like my couch gathers dust bunnies.  But for me it is part of "what is", nothing to get worked up about.  Now if I suddenly woke up and I was in the body of a Siberian shaman from 200 years ago, and he had stolen my soul ... well then that would need attending to, but it hasn't happened and I don't worry about such things ... though fiction writers do.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

WanderingWonderer

Quote from: Mike Cl on October 10, 2015, 03:49:02 PM
Yeah, well maybe.  You are assuming that they all actually lived.  If so, why do you make that assumption?  And was that change for the better?  And by whose standards?  Like you I used to think this:"Alas, no matter how good they were, they would still die, and their followers would quickly go astray and create religions."  But I don't think they lived.  You see, I was curious and skeptical and did some research.  I could not find any evidence that they lived.  So, who then, created them?  And for what purpose?  I also don't think we, as a species, are better off for having those 'avatars' created and foisted upon us.
It is irrelevant whether they literally lived as individual humans, but who exactly are we talking about because we can disprove one or even some, but not all. However, what makes you think they didn't have any positive impact that benefited humanity? A bias perhaps?

WanderingWonderer

Quote from: Baruch on October 10, 2015, 03:52:23 PM
Yes and no.  Whatever one might think of the ontology of such people ... are they just ordinary people, are they something more than ordinary people ... such people existed, exist now, and will continue to exist.  They may or may not gather followers, just like my couch gathers dust bunnies.  But for me it is part of "what is", nothing to get worked up about.  Now if I suddenly woke up and I was in the body of a Siberian shaman from 200 years ago, and he had stolen my soul ... well then that would need attending to, but it hasn't happened and I don't worry about such things ... though fiction writers do.
You're marginalizing revolutionaries because of your beliefs, and not because they weren't important.