Do you hope you're wrong?

[doorknob]

O_O

um wow this thread has been slightly hijacked.

[Baruch]

We can put off the question of the longevity of the species for a long time I hope ... but maybe not, if you follow the news.  It has been thought by bigger brains, that whatever does us in, has to be novel, unexpected ... otherwise we could dodge it.  So maybe not nukes this time, because there is nothing new in that.  If one is caught up in a species ending event, it will at least color your notion of an afterlife, a little differently compared to just growing old.

[NeoLogic26]

I'd agree with some and that the idea of some non-specific afterlife might be cool.  If I had the means to experience the universe in its entirety, that would truly be worth an eternity of existence.  Although, heat death would be a bummer.

[Unbeliever]

My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.

I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.

But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.

Do I hope I'm wrong about God's non-existence? No! No! A thousand times, no!

Given the totally horrific nature of the biblical God, I could never hope that such a monster as that could exist.

A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was a tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect, "he" becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all-knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified.

Karen Armstrong

[trdsf]

My mom asked me this today. She's coming around to the idea of me being godless, but mostly seems perturbed at the idea that I don't think we'll be spending forever together in Heaven.

I don't really know. I personally would be horrified to discover virtually any major organized religion was true. I hope to God (pun intended) that they aren't.

But some non-specific idea of enteral existence? I don't know.

I'm only interested in an afterlife if I can spend it moving freely in time and space like some incorporeal TARDIS, just seeing and learning more and more.

And when I know enough, I'll start my own universe.

[Baruch]

I'd agree with some and that the idea of some non-specific afterlife might be cool.  If I had the means to experience the universe in its entirety, that would truly be worth an eternity of existence.  Although, heat death would be a bummer.

Heat death only happens when the system is closed ... if the universe is open, then that isn't true.  Of course, for some people, the very definition of universe, is a closed system ... but I would counter that they are lacking in imagination, and just need to open a window to get some fresh air, metaphorically speaking.  Don't take the Restaurant At The End Of The Universe literally.

Unbeliever ... Karen Armstrong is right ... I have always been impressed by her.

Trdsf ... you will, because you will be uploaded into Wikipedia ;-)

[Unbeliever]

Maybe the finite speed of light actually causes the universe to be closed on itself?

[Baruch]

Whether the one existing universe we know is open or closed, remains an open question.

Depends on what you mean by speed vs velocity.  Speed is a scalar, and velocity is a vector, whose length is speed.  And are you speaking of Euclidean space or Minkowski space-time?  In Euclidean space, the speed of light-like particles is constant speed of light, as measured by all moving or static inertial frames. In Minkowski space-time, as measured by proper distance-proper time ... all objects move at the speed of light, as measured by all moving or static inertial frames ... non-light-like particles only seem to move at less than the speed of light ... because Minkowski space-time is hyperbolic, not Euclidean.  In the presence of a gravitational field, the velocity of light is not constant, because it bends the vector ... though the length of the vector, the speed of light, remains constant.  Even in Newtonian gravity, with Newtonian light particles (not waves), gravity bends the vector, but not as much as is observed.

The question of open or closed, of the type mentioned above ... depends on the net effect of gravitation over very long distances and times.  Could a beam of light go (in space) all the way around the universe (like an Earth equator) and return to the original location (in space)?  Obviously though, not at the time as measured by an ordinary clock ... it would take billions of years to return.  But from the point of view of the light particles (modern version) there is no passage of time ... so if it returns, it would be instantaneous.

[CrucifyCindy]

A dystheist?  Does that mean dysfunctioning theist?

Dystheism is an ancient religious tradition that dates back to Ancient Egypt and Babylon

[Baruch]

I mistook the meaning ... but now having read up ... I have to agree ... G-d is definitely a trickster.  That is why clergy resemble their deity ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism

[Mike Cl]

Dystheism is an ancient religious tradition that dates back to Ancient Egypt and Babylon

I like my definition better.

[peacewithoutgod]

It's only been in the last few years that I've become aware of how piddling man's duration as a species actually is.  I always knew he was nothing compared to the great survivors like the sharks or the dinosaurs.  I used to think of us as having been around for 3 to 5 million years, but now I'm hearing our lifetime as a species might be as low as 50,000 years, although it's often claimed to be 100,000 years.  Those guys from 3 million years ago, were just other hominids, failed evolutionary experiments, and a brief as those experiments were, some outlasted us by tenfold.  Somehow, I had gotten it in my head that all those different hominid fossils were our ancestors.  Some appear to be, but many aren't, and those are only the fossils we have found.  Who knows how many more of those failed experiments that we don't have a clue about have shared the planet along with others during the same time?  Now they are all dead, and we are the only ones left, which strikes me as a rather ominous foreboding about our future.

And along with all the other life on the planet, which appears so abundant at this time, is just what there happens to be here at this geologic moment.  For all the species that now exist, thousands of times more have gone extinct, most probably without leaving a trace so we don't even know of their existence.  Our future is not just tenuous.  Statistically speaking, our odds of becoming a resilient species on the order a turtle, is somewhere around nil.

Homo Sapiens demonstrated its resilience when it outlived its species cousins, and I have little doubt that a few among us will find ways to continue adapting for as long as any form of life can exist on this planet. Unlike other species, we don't depend on our environmental conditions, we find ways to change that instead. We aren't panda bears, who don't even understand the imperative of eating and mating for survival, and we are more numerous than any mammal of our size. No matter what calamity future mistakes bring about, there will likely be a few who find ways to survive it, and we are much better than other animals at finding each other over great distances to increase our chances of survival. We depend on our minds for this, but as long as the human mind persists, the species will go on, or it will evolve from the post-apocalyptic survivors with the changes. Its evolution is no longer in the hands of the natural environment, but of the environment created or modified by itself. You know it got through the last major glaciation, right? 

I'm not worried about the end of our species, but I am concerned of how it will be for the survivors when some self-delusioned primate causes the collapse of our civilization.

[widdershins]

The idea that there is some loving father figure out there who is going to make me live forever and take care of me for all times in complete bliss is certainly a pleasant one.  I would like to live forever in complete bliss.  But do I "hope" I'm wrong?  No.  I've come to grips with the reality that I am mortal and I will some day die.  It would certainly be nice to have super powers, but I'm not going to waste my time and energy, not to mention the IQ points I have to trade, to hope for something utterly ridiculous.  I might as well stick my head in a vat of toxic waste hoping to get the strength of a hundred men, or maybe laser-beam eyes.  I simply can't believe that any god too disinterested in me to talk to me while I'm alive will suddenly find me so fascinating that he just can't leave my side when I'm dead.  And if I'm wrong then the universe simply stops making sense.  I don't want the universe to not make sense.  If the universe didn't make sense then I should at the very least get some magic powers out of the deal, but I didn't, so I want the universe to make sense.

[Baruch]

"I'm not worried about the end of our species, but I am concerned of how it will be for the survivors when some self-delusioned primate causes the collapse of our civilization." ... but it isn't just because of some super-villain ... the system itself is part of the problem.  Humans transcended biological evolution with social evolution, and atheists are proof of a kind, that individuals transcend social evolution with personal development (until you die anyway).  The problem species face is over specialization.  If you can't survive without a Food Stamp card ... then there are scenarios that will be rather grim for you, in the event the Food Stamp card isn't working anymore.  But that really applies to a lot of us urban chump chimps.

Widdershins ... yes, definitely laser eyes would be boss!

[peacewithoutgod]

"I'm not worried about the end of our species, but I am concerned of how it will be for the survivors when some self-delusioned primate causes the collapse of our civilization." ... but it isn't just because of some super-villain ... the system itself is part of the problem.  Humans transcended biological evolution with social evolution, and atheists are proof of a kind, that individuals transcend social evolution with personal development (until you die anyway).  The problem species face is over specialization.  If you can't survive without a Food Stamp card ... then there are scenarios that will be rather grim for you, in the event the Food Stamp card isn't working anymore.  But that really applies to a lot of us urban chump chimps.

Widdershins ... yes, definitely laser eyes would be boss!

Most of us will die in the next apocalypse, certainly myself included, so whether our species becomes extinct if it happens tomorrow is trivial to ourselves. But scattered around the globe there are quite enough who will be ready and adaptable enough to survive, and hopefully they won't all be Mormon.