The Refugee Crisis

[aitm]

Hey Joe. Nice to see you again. Hope you and yours are well my friend.

[josephpalazzo]

What part of "Fuck you Turkey, we're going to send them back to you because you should deal with them" does this world not understand?

It's not a question about Turkey, or any other Muslim country as a matter of fact, it's about an individual fleeing a country ravaged by war. I don't think that religion is upper most in the mind of that refugee but more likely a safe haven country. As it turns out, Europe, more specifically for many, Germany as that country has publicly announced it was ready to accept as many as it can. As far as I'm concerned I look at the individual as a human first, before I look at his religion/ethnicity or whatever measure you can use to identify an individual... while others see this whole tragedy as an invasion in the name Allah, duh!

[josephpalazzo]

Oh yeah- welcome back, JP.

This is the beginning. The refugee tide of now is nearly overwhelming, especially to countries like Hungary and Greece, who have little or no infrastructure to handle them. Turkey? We shall see. And it will get worse and continue for the foreseeable future. European nations are becoming more conservative and there is a growing tide of resentment-largely from the poorer nationalists- who see immigrants as a curse. And there are leaders who will capitalize on that and look to join them. As a political bloc, a large conservative core throughout Europe becomes destabilizing to more liberal governments like France or Germany.

Interesting times. Kinda glad, like PR, I'm probably not going to live long enough to see the nasty outcome.

Thanks

Yes, the danger is that the far right might use this to score points and turn this into political leverage. I'm hoping that won't happen. I mean, after WW2,  there were millions of refugees, yet, Europe managed to get back on its feet. No reason to believe otherwise. It will be chaotic, but people are resilient.

[josephpalazzo]

Hey Joe. Nice to see you again. Hope you and yours are well my friend.

Thanks, I was in and out of hospital, but everything is ok now.

[peacewithoutgod]

It's not a question about Turkey, or any other Muslim country as a matter of fact, it's about an individual fleeing a country ravaged by war. I don't think that religion is upper most in the mind of that refugee but more likely a safe haven country. As it turns out, Europe, more specifically for many, Germany as that country has publicly announced it was ready to accept as many as it can. As far as I'm concerned I look at the individual as a human first, before I look at his religion/ethnicity or whatever measure you can use to identify an individual... while others see this whole tragedy as an invasion in the name Allah, duh!

I'm glad to meet you, Joe!

Look, I don't like to be the one who dehumanizes anybody who's in the desperate situation of these refugees from Syria and elsewhere, but they will bring their religion with them, and that's not good for either they nor Western culture. I don't know what makes Germany a desired destination more than Merkel's invitation, but she has proven to be a cruel hypocrite who cares no more for the welfare of her own people than for the Greeks who she has so hypocritically shafted. She'll only use poor immigrants to bring her working class down to their level, make the German elite invincible, and the rest will all live in misery. When the Muslims in Germany go jihad, the police will step up their militarization and the population will be permanently cowed into submission, just as in the US. It will happen that way because there is no place for the Muslim philosophy in a free society - where they go which is not ruled by Islam, there are and always will be enough among them who will threaten it's freedom until there is freedom no more. It's going to happen anyway, so I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's what people like Merkel do.

[pr126]

Would you like this in your streets?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvyhrrwjjCk

Well, you will have it anyway.  Sooner than you think.

[Shiranu]

Right then, anyways...

One disgusting trend I have noticed lately is to refer to them as "migrants" as a way to soften the emotional blow; like that is what the world needs, more cynicism and heartlessness.

It's one thing to say "500 people died as their boat capsized". That sounds terrible.
It's one thing to say "500 refugees died as their boat capsized" ... now it sounds truly terrible, because they are trying to escape a terrible situation!

But then say, "500 migrants died as their boat capsized"... suddenly it doesn't feel so bad. Migrants? Those are the people who come here and steal our jobs, refuse to speak English (German/Italian/French, whatever), who are criminals and rapists!

The fact that some one actually thought, "Yeah, lets make this huge human rights issue a bit more trivial, we don't want people to take it TOO seriously now..." is mindblowing to me.

[pr126]

I see what you mean. Apparently the labels are interchangeable.


Muslim migrants threw 12 Christians overboard to their deaths because they were not praying to Allah when they asked God for help when their dinghy suffered a puncture

When a rubber dinghy carrying around 100 African refugees across the Mediterranean began to sink, a Nigerian Christian prayed for his life in an innocent act that would end in the deaths of 12 fellow migrants.

One of the Muslims on board the rickety craft ordered him to stop, saying: 'Here, we only pray to Allah.'

When he refused, a violent fight ensued and 12 Christians drowned when they were thrown overboard by the Muslim refugees.

The tragic news comes amid reports that an unprecedented 10,000 refugees fleeing war and persecution in Africa have been rescued by Italian ships in the past week.

I get it, the Muslims are refugees and the Cristian's are migrants. There.
88 refugees and 12 migrants.

[josephpalazzo]

I'm glad to meet you, Joe!

Look, I don't like to be the one who dehumanizes anybody who's in the desperate situation of these refugees from Syria and elsewhere, but they will bring their religion with them, and that's not good for either they nor Western culture. I don't know what makes Germany a desired destination more than Merkel's invitation, but she has proven to be a cruel hypocrite who cares no more for the welfare of her own people than for the Greeks who she has so hypocritically shafted. She'll only use poor immigrants to bring her working class down to their level, make the German elite invincible, and the rest will all live in misery. When the Muslims in Germany go jihad, the police will step up their militarization and the population will be permanently cowed into submission, just as in the US. It will happen that way because there is no place for the Muslim philosophy in a free society - where they go which is not ruled by Islam, there are and always will be enough among them who will threaten it's freedom until there is freedom no more. It's going to happen anyway, so I hope I'm wrong, but I think that's what people like Merkel do.

You've put a lot of issues in this post, which I will not attempt to address all of them. But let me make a few points.

First, it's a humanitarian crisis. We should look at these refugees as human beings, and treat them as such, regardless of their ethnicity or their religious beliefs. Second, the whole world should pitch in, not just the European countries which are immediately affected, whether in taking more refugees, or give support by supplying material or money. Thirdly, the whole world can't shrug this off by ignoring the causes of this crisis - particularly the war in Syria. 

Now what happens in the aftermath, which seems to be your concern: that these refugees are mainly Muslims, and they will bring their religion with them. Sure, that is a concern. But if Europeans have done a poor job in dealing with this problem, that is their own doing. Lets put it this way: if you believe your values are better than theirs, they will prevail. For instance, freedom of expression is more important than the "right that your religion should not be attacked", human rights are more important than "your right to Sharia Law".  Also, in many European countries, the plight of economic woes amongst the Muslim population has been far too far ignored, giving these people little to lose but to resent and oppose the society that initially welcomed them. And so on, the problems are too many, and vary from country to country. But I see these as separate issues from the current crisis. 

[jonb]

You've put a lot of issues in this post, which I will not attempt to address all of them. But let me make a few points.

First, it's a humanitarian crisis. We should look at these refugees as human beings, and treat them as such, regardless of their ethnicity or their religious beliefs. Second, the whole world should pitch in, not just the European countries which are immediately affected, whether in taking more refugees, or give support by supplying material or money. Thirdly, the whole world can't shrug this off by ignoring the causes of this crisis - particularly the war in Syria. 

Now what happens in the aftermath, which seems to be your concern: that these refugees are mainly Muslims, and they will bring their religion with them. Sure, that is a concern. But if Europeans have done a poor job in dealing with this problem, that is their own doing. Lets put it this way: if you believe your values are better than theirs, they will prevail. For instance, freedom of expression is more important than the "right that your religion should not be attacked", human rights are more important than "your right to Sharia Law".  Also, in many European countries, the plight of economic woes amongst the Muslim population has been far too far ignored, giving these people little to lose but to resent and oppose the society that initially welcomed them. And so on, the problems are too many, and vary from country to country. But I see these as separate issues from the current crisis.

I have enboldened the segment I have very strong problems with.
What about if I do not believe my cultural values are better than anyone else's just that they are different? That the culture I enjoy is a delicate thing to be protected, nourished, and valued. Why is it wrong for me to pursue a happiness which might be different from others?

[Munch]

Would you like this in your streets?


Well, you will have it anyway.  Sooner than you think.

It is a scary scene. However Farage is someone whos used any tactic he can for fear-mongering, so I don't take him seriously in whatever he tries to do. The issue, as said, will either be having europe attacking the source of the problem, namely the reason why these people are flooding to europe, the source of there own countries instability and europes open door policy, or there will be cival unrest happening here that the law won't be able to put a stop to.
Regardless of whatever the truth might be, the media will make the migrant crisis such an issue that people in europe will start attacking migrants and refugees.

[aitm]

What about if

the part you emboldened did indeed start off with IF..

[pr126]

Let's not forget that the war in Syria is caused by ISLAM, where Muslims are killing Muslims.
And Christians, Kurds, Yadizis, or anyone happens to be in the firing line.

It is a civil war, or rather a sectarian war Shia vs Sunni.

The misery and death is self inflicted. Because of ISLAM.

Someone had to say it.

[jonb]

the part you emboldened did indeed start off with IF..

and I replied with an if, but both posts represent different ways of looking at a problem.

Pr126, if you think the only cause was islam you know nothing about history of that area and therefore have lessened the impact of any statements you make.

[pr126]

and I replied with an if, but both posts represent different ways of looking at a problem.

Pr126, if you think the only cause was islam you know nothing about history of that area and therefore have lessened the impact of any statements you make.

The elephant in the room: (just a small sample)


http://www.warsintheworld.com/?page=static1258254223

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/221731981629745409/

https://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/of-the-22-world-conflicts-around-the-world-21-are-muslim/

http://ibloga.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/95-of-violent-conflicts-around-world.html

BTW, I lived in that area for a decade.