Reason and Logic Rule

[thebesttrees]

Difference between a surgeon and a god, is that a surgeon is a tangible being; a god not so much.

Tangibility is a very slippery road with precipices on both sides!

[thebesttrees]

That is why in English Christian hymns ... Son is conflated with sun.

Even broader and from the Bible itself:

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

[Mike Cl]

Even broader and from the Bible itself:

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Yes, that is from the bible.  But how do we know that that is from his mouth and put into it with the pen (well, quill, really)  of some unknown author?  And just because it is in the bible, why does that give whatever it is any authority or authenticity?

[thebesttrees]

Yes, that is from the bible.  But how do we know that that is from his mouth and put into it with the pen (well, quill, really)  of some unknown author?  And just because it is in the bible, why does that give whatever it is any authority or authenticity?

Great questions!

[Baruch]

More info ... people 2000 years ago, didn't think like modern people.  For them, light goes from the eyes to the object being viewed ... it has to do with consciousness, not physics.  There was no modern optics until an Arab in Egypt 1000 years later invented it.  So Jesus as Logos ... which means mind/reason not just "word" (as in letters on a page, sheesh ... but like "name", it means "power") is the perfect Platonic universal source of consciousness, and therefore in the thought of that time, the light of the world.  It wasn't that he had lit himself up like a suicidal Buddhist monk.  This is why the NT speaks of internal light (which is clearly not solar).  To people then, the Sun was a pagan god, not a thermonuclear reaction .. or at best the chariot driven by the god, Helios.

In Genesis, the light appears before the sun and moon ... it is the inner light of consciousness.  And the hymn metaphor only works in English, in Greek son=uios and sun=helios.  In Greek, most masculine nouns end in -ios ... so it isn't considered rhyming ... but poetry was originally used, in Greek, to make incantations more potent.

[Baruch]

Mike CL ... but authority is a trick question.  Nothing and nobody has any authority, except the "I", the ego of each person.  We can delegate this authority to another (and children often do, for practical reasons), but no adult has to.  If you want to delegate authority to physics, that is fine as an impersonal authority ... that will punish you if you jump off a building.

Thebesttrees ... yes, tangibility is less than it appears, but not to materialists.

[SGOS]

Tangibility is a very slippery road with precipices on both sides!

It is, but most of it is due to license taken with word meanings.

A surgeon is tangible.  You can punch him in the eye, and your knuckles will experience a tactile sensation.

You can "feel" the presence of god, but "feel" here does not imply tangibility or a tactile sensation.  The person that implies this, is probably lying, because although he claims to feel god, not everyone else can.

[Mike Cl]

Great questions!

Thanks.  Do you have any great answers??? :)

[Mike Cl]

Mike CL ... but authority is a trick question.  Nothing and nobody has any authority, except the "I", the ego of each person.  We can delegate this authority to another (and children often do, for practical reasons), but no adult has to.  If you want to delegate authority to physics, that is fine as an impersonal authority ... that will punish you if you jump off a building.

Thebesttrees ... yes, tangibility is less than it appears, but not to materialists.

Baruch, no, not a trick question.  I was trying to keep the jargon in a theists realm.  I am interested in what trees thinks of that concept, since he clearly gives the bible some weight in his life.  I don't give it any authority in any sense of the word.  But I already know why I think that--I don't know why trees does.

[peacewithoutgod]

Tangibility is a very slippery road with precipices on both sides!

All roads are slippery with endless torrents of bullshit raining down on them, just saying.

Best Formula For Navigating Slippery Roads:
What is tangible is probably real, and what isn't was probably imagineered by one suffering from delusions, or by a con artist. You may as well trust your own senses when others can offer no tangible and empirical proof that they can see things which you don't. If somebody claims they or somebody else has seen something which they could only tell you about and not show you without drugs, psychological trickery, or other sleight-of-hand tactics, then you need not consider it any further. For example, maybe I would claim that I ride all over the world on my dragon, moving in close enough to watch what every living "soul" does on this earth.  If I began to speak of what you do which you thought nobody else knew of other than a few online sites which you visit, and nobody ever sighted my dragon anywhere, then am I really a god who rides a dragon or a cyber-criminal? Then I explain that I and my dragon are invisible when I ride it, and that should fix it for you, right? Bonus points for anybody who asks what sort of decent person spies on people by any means when they can, this is unfortunately all too rare.

My senses aren't perfect, but with glasses on I see what others see, and with 800 million years of natural selection behind them and mushrooming technology to aid this, I worry less of the said imperceptibles which people claim knowledge of than the fact that such people get others to follow them.

[thebesttrees]

Baruch, no, not a trick question.  I was trying to keep the jargon in a theists realm.  I am interested in what trees thinks of that concept, since he clearly gives the bible some weight in his life.  I don't give it any authority in any sense of the word.  But I already know why I think that--I don't know why trees does.

Settling down here in this forum takes time for me. In the process, as a first step I would like to find common grounds upon which we can build some meaningful discussions.

I DO NOT believe in the same god that you DO NOT believe in assuming I have understood to a good degree of certainty, what god it is that you do not believe in from the discussions we have had so far.

And lastly in an operating room, while working on a patient dying of cardiac arrest, the surgeon should refuse to answer his wife's phone call on why he had forgotten  to put gas in her car.

[Baruch]

Thebesttrees ... take your time to think and articulate.

Meanwhile, no ... a physician or nurse should not multitask.  This is a known evil in medical situations, even though interns are often worked to death ... to find their breaking point I suppose.  I certainly hope there were no distractions for those responding to the Code Blue at the clinic this morning, where I work.

[Mike Cl]

Settling down here in this forum takes time for me. In the process, as a first step I would like to find common grounds upon which we can build some meaningful discussions.

I DO NOT believe in the same god that you DO NOT believe in assuming I have understood to a good degree of certainty, what god it is that you do not believe in from the discussions we have had so far.

And lastly in an operating room, while working on a patient dying of cardiac arrest, the surgeon should refuse to answer his wife's phone call on why he had forgotten  to put gas in her car.

Hmmm...................well, uhh....this is one of the most different non-answers I've ever received.  So, with that in mind...................

I do not believe in any god/gods (except those dedicated to ice cream and the New York Yankees).  So, if you believe in a god, I don't.  Or even if you don't believe in a god, I don't either.  You seem to believe Jesus was a person since you quoted something written by an unknown author saying he heard him say what you quoted him saying.  I think Jesus was a myth and not a man.  So, I don't put much store in quotes from cartoon characters--not Pecos Bill, not Paul Bunyan, Not Yosemite Sam--not Jesus.  So, it boils down to not much common ground here.  And your beliefs are sketchy, at best.  Common ground--I like ice cream and the New York Yankees--do you?

As for the surgeon not answering his wife's call--I guess we could agree on that.  But the surgeon must be held accountable for the lack of gas, for his wife was to be the assistant surgeon on that patient dying of cardiac arrest; actually, he should be arrested for allowing the arrest to occur in the first place, since the team was one surgeon short!

Common ground is a good place to be, but very hard to get to when not all parties are forthcoming with any info to allow for the search of that common ground.  So far, all I hear is the very loud clapping of one hand!

[Baruch]

One hand clapping ... easy ... snap of the fingers ;-)

[peacewithoutgod]

One hand clapping ... easy ... snap of the fingers ;-)

One hand clapping face - even better!