We die--then what??

[CrucifyCindy]

Okay, with you so far.  How do you know that there is an 'all powerful' force?

We are all going to die.

[Mike Cl]

I don't know how long it would take me to google this, but I recall somebody explaining how the arising of life makes sense according to the laws of thermodynamics. Life forms don't just consume energy, they all in some way re-radiate energy out of the atmosphere, and back into space. To make it really brief and without attempting to explain it beyond my understanding, plants take energy from the rocks, animals take energy from the plants, energy is extracted for more efficient re-radiation out. Because the Earth isn't really a closed system, as say the creationists who love to harp on the 2nd Law, and the true physical laws will be obeyed!

This is what Sean Carroll has to say about it:
The reason why we are here and life arose on Earth is because the sun is a hot spot in a cold sky. What matters is not that we get energy from the sun, but that we get low-entropy energy. Orderly energy, which is able to do useful work. We chew our cuds and we photosynthesize and we have conventions, all of which degrades that energy. We raise its entropy and then we send it back to the universe.

For every one photon of light we get from the sun, we radiate 20 photons back into the universe, with 20 times the entropy. We give exactly as much energy back to the universe as we get: On average, each photon we radiate out into the sky has one-twentieth the energy of the ones we receive. What matters is not that the sun is a source of energy but that it's a source of energy in a low-entropy form.

[Cocoa Beware]

I don't know how long it would take me to google this, but I recall somebody explaining how the arising of life makes sense according to the laws of thermodynamics. Life forms don't just consume energy, they all in some way re-radiate energy out of the atmosphere, and back into space. To make it really brief and without attempting to explain it beyond my understanding, plants take energy from the rocks, animals take energy from the plants, energy is extracted for more efficient re-radiation out. Because the Earth isn't really a closed system, as say the creationists who love to harp on the 2nd Law, and the true physical laws will be obeyed!

Personally I dont think we give life enough credit;
It really is a fascinating, efficient and clever system plants and animals have collectively come up with.

[CrucifyCindy]

Personally I dont think we give life enough credit;

What more credit can you give it? We all suffer then we die.

[Mike Cl]

Personally I dont think we give life enough credit;
It really is a fascinating, efficient and clever system plants and animals have collectively come up with.

And beyond cruel at times, as well.

[CrucifyCindy]

An immovable object told her ;-P

Nah...an iresistable force told me.

[Mike Cl]

Nah...an iresistable force told me.

I know of only two irresistible forces in the universe--ice cream and the New York Yankees.  Where and when did your irresistible force meet up with you?

[CrucifyCindy]

I know of only two irresistible forces in the universe--ice cream and the New York Yankees.  Where and when did your irresistible force meet up with you?

When I first came into awareness of such things as death and entropy

[Mike Cl]

When I first came into awareness of such things as death and entropy

I am quite aware of death and entropy.  But that is part of what convinced me there is no god--only nature and that's it. 

Seems like we look at the same things and come up with opposed ideas.

[doorknob]

Well in my point of view I only describe something as divine as something as "All Powerful", other theists might define divinity as "All Powerful and All Good and All Knowing", but I don't do that. When I say "God" I am describing a force that is "All Powerful"

that's great we can all speculate on what god is or isn't. No matter how you define a god or gods there is 0 evidence that they exist. When you present some evidence then come talk to me.

[thebesttrees]

Yes, I agree with what you said.  But that only goes so far--I have not seen any evidence of any kind that suggests that such a thing exists in any way, shape or form.  I have seen some evidence that the human body does not possess such a thing.  And I don't think there is anything outside nature.  If it exists, it is natural.  If it is not natural it does not exist--an nothing can exist outside nature.

1. Is it admissible logically to attribute an unknown source to an effect/outcome when every known source is discounted? If O is the outcome, and all known sources are S then a subset of S has caused O. If however, the whole set of S is discounted as yielding O, then O should have another source outside of S. Is this a logical approach?

2.

  I have seen some evidence that the human body does not possess such a thing. 

Please share some of this evidence.

[CrucifyCindy]

that's great we can all speculate on what god is or isn't. No matter how you define a god or gods there is 0 evidence that they exist. When you present some evidence then come talk to me.

Like I said God is how I describe an All Powerful force like death. You want evidence of that? Ask me that question on your death bed...then come talk to me

[doorknob]

Like I said God is how I describe an All Powerful force like death. You want evidence of that? Ask me that question on your death bed...then come talk to me

that is not evidence of anything that is just you redefining what god is or your opinion of what god is nice try. And no death is not a force it is a natural out come of the life cycle.

[CrucifyCindy]

that is not evidence of anything that is just you redefining what god is or your opinion of what god is nice try. And no death is not a force it is a natural out come of the life cycle.

You know as a pessimist I could accuse you of redefining life as a natural outcome of the death cycle Once again our words describe thing and are not actually the things themselves. I see death and entropy as an irresistable force...you may be more optimistic.

[Mike Cl]

Like I said God is how I describe an All Powerful force like death. You want evidence of that? Ask me that question on your death bed...then come talk to me

I don't see death as an all powerful force.  It is the result of a process.  This universe started out in balance and it will end up in balance.  Between those two times, there will be unbalance in the universe and that is what accounts for the process we call life.  It is totally natural and we can learn more of it's nature by discovering it's physical laws.  There is no room for an outside force--and no need.  All can be accounted for by nature much more easily than by a god or gods. 

And if I'm on my death bed, I don't think I'll be able to come and find you.  But if I were, what about dying would change my mind?