We die--then what??

[Mike Cl]

This little selection is from a speech Sean Carroll, theoretical physicist, gave at a Freedom From Religion function recently.

So as the early atmosphere and the early oceans sloshed about, occasionally there would fluctuate into existence just the right thing to do all the chemical reactions in the right place. Increasing the entropy of the atmosphere that caught on and became the first living being. That's what life is. That insight is crucial, not only to the scientific definition of life but to our actual lives.

This is the thing that the audience didn't understand when Steven Avella and I were debating Eben Alexander and Raymond Moody. The thing they didn't get the most was, "But when you die, where do you go? Isn't energy conserved, don't you have energy, doesn't it go somewhere?" The answer is that life is not an energy, a force, a spirit, a substance. It is a process. It is a chemical reaction.

The end of a life is putting out a candle. When you put out a candle, the energy doesn't go anywhere. The reaction stops. When you die, you don't go anywhere. Your atoms are still there, with all of their energy, but you stop happening. That's what it means to die. It will happen to you. If you wait long enough, we will all reach equilibrium.

It's very possible, by the way, that medical science will extend our lives by an enormous amount. It's not at all in violation of the laws of physics for human beings to live thousands or tens of thousands of years. But we are not there yet.

We, like other mammals on Earth, get roughly 1.5 billion heartbeats per life span. Then that will be it and you will go away. This is why the afterlife is a false consolation. This is why this wishful thinking, this hope that life is eternal and will go on forever, is not the right hope to have. This is why I like to say that heaven is a bad idea.

Just like [previous speaker] Anthony Pinn pointed out, this wisdom can be found in poets and songwriters. Heaven is a bad idea because you reach thermal equilibrium and nothing happens. It's boring! David Byrne knows this: "Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens." Leonard Cohen knows this: "The place was dead as heaven on a Saturday night."
I'd much rather be spending my Saturday night with the infidels talking about things than in heaven with the angels.

There is a fantastic novel written by Julian Barnes called A History of the World in 10½ Chapters. In the last chapter, he puts forth his idea of heaven, in fictional form. And there's always a catch if you're in a novel version of heaven, right? His hero, who is sort of a working-class, blue-collar British duffer, dies and goes to heaven. He has a guide who explains, basically, here's how it works: It's heaven, you can have whatever you want. The catch is that you have to figure out what you want. It is up to your imagination and capabilities to ask for things. We're not going to make suggestions.

This guy knew what he wanted. He wanted to play golf, he wanted to have sex, and he wanted to have breakfast for three meals a day. So that's exactly what he got. For hundreds of years he became very good at it. He had sex with all sorts of women in various different combinations. He became so good at golf that he got a hole-in-one on every single shot on every single course in heaven.

Then he got bored and told his guide about it. The guide said, "Well, everyone has the option here of dying, of truly ending their lives."

"How many people ask for that option?" The guide responded, "Everybody asks for that option, eventually."


What really struck me was when he indicated that life is not a thing or a state--it is a process.  I used to think each of us are a bundle of energy and since energy is not gained nor lost, 'we' must go somewhere.  But like a candle going out, so do we.  The process stops.  And that is that. 

And I appreciate what he had to say about happiness.  If one strives for happiness all the time, one is destined to become bored.  If one does as Joseph Campbell suggests, and follow one's bliss in life, happiness and contentment will be a byproduct of that process. 

[TomFoolery]

I always thought most Christian notions of Heaven sounded like Hell. Even if it was paradise and might be cool for the first few centuries and you'd get to see all your dead loved ones and whatnot, it would get old. It's like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day, where continued life (or afterlife) is just continued agony.

[NakedTracyBlack]

Personally I'd lean more toward reincarnation.  People get recycled, and have another go at life.  As someone different. 

Heaven sounds kind of dull.  Not just because it's eternity, but it seems like it's just worshiping god all the time.  Which sounds like hell.  A cooler heaven would be getting to be god of your own little world I think.  Maybe that's what we're living in.  Someone else's heaven right now. 

[Mike Cl]

I always thought most Christian notions of Heaven sounded like Hell. Even if it was paradise and might be cool for the first few centuries and you'd get to see all your dead loved ones and whatnot, it would get old. It's like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day, where continued life (or afterlife) is just continued agony.

That was my thought about that, as well.  I especially like Mark Twain's thoughts on heaven in Letter's From Earth.  It had to be published after his death and is a satirical look at christianity thru the eyes of satan who was banished from heaven to Earth for a celestial day (1000 yrs) via letters to the Arch Angel Michael in heaven.  Great stuff!

[SoldierofFortune]

when we die, it will be like when we sleep at night without dreaming. absolute nothingness.
or

[Mike Cl]

when we die, it will be like when we sleep at night without dreaming. absolute nothingness.
or

Yeah, I think you are right.  As for the 'or'--my mother told me she would come back and tell me what's what after death.  (No, she was not a believer--but she did have a good sense of humor) So far, nothing.  But I'm not hanging around with a great deal of anticipation, either.  But I tell you what--when I kick the bucket, if I can, I will come back to this board and tell you guys what's up.

[SoldierofFortune]

: )

i would write after ''or'': i don't know either you had an operation(surgery) or not. it's similar to death experience when you are under the influence of narcosis and lose consciousness. i know this situation.

[Baruch]

Everyone knows the "little death" of sleep.  Time is neither linear nor circular ... but more complicated.  Abrahamic time forces us to go from point A to point B.  And Indian time forces us to go in circles until we move off the circumference of the wheel, to the axel of the wheel.  Indians (Hindu/Buddhist) differ as to what the axel is like.  So I prefer Chuang Tzu ... death, after a little rest, is like waking up.  The prior life is like a dream.  But what you wake up to, isn't necessarily some existence on Earth.

There is no past or future, just the present ... and for each of us, it is centered on our selves.  The usual Heaven/Hell are just projections and dreams ... Heaven is an emotion not a place ... happiness ... and Hell is an emotion not a place ... sadness.  Heaven and Hell are realized in the present.

[peacewithoutgod]

It will be peaceful, with no pain and no regrets. This world can do its worst to me now, but once I'm gone you can all do whatever the fuck you want because I won't be there, I won't care! If I had my druthers, I'd be left naked and ass-up on the steps of my State Capitol, so that all may kiss it, but sadly I know I'll have no satisfaction should that happen.

[stromboli]

Riverworld

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld

[Mike Cl]

Riverworld

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverworld

I have been threatening to read that series.  Have you?  Is it worth the time and effort to start it?

[aitm]

Death will be like being under anesthesia, its black, there are no thoughts and right before you wake up…you don't . So its like that, except forever and ever and ever -amen

[Cocoa Beware]

I didnt encounter a single problem with non existence for billions of years, theres no reason to think it would be a problem again in the future.

[aitm]

I didnt encounter a single problem with non existence for billions of years, theres no reason to think it would be a problem again in the future.

Now see here! The thing is that this is obviously your FIRST life…see, now you does to sit around for a couple hours or years and let the universe inject it's essence into you, you become ONE with the ONE and the ONE becomes da ALL. Got dat? Now that the universe has become part of your essence your atoms and corpuscles and all get up and hibbity jibbity with the wholeness of the plasmic consicuoness thingy. See? Then your quantum magical underwear give yo a great peace and knowledge of the universe and beyond. You will at once be the universe, part of the universe and a right little dab of the universe all at the same time. Dat shit is what they call the quam,..or quango, or duwhopditty. So the yingin and the yangin gets to combusticatin until the whole damn fine ego centricist of your essence is a blaze with knowledge. Then once you reach the ultimate of the 20 or 30 reincarnation shit, THEN, and ONLY THEN do you die…..and then its over. Jes like dat.

[CrucifyCindy]

  Time is neither linear nor circular

But it curves, so how can it not be circular. I don't believe it is a closed loop or flat circle like the Buddhists or Nietzsche but I do believe there is strong evidence that it curves and therefore is sort of circular.