The Problem of Evil

[jonb]

If the cause is not observable, then light is not primary.
If reality is agreed between us the agreement is primary.


Hops around room after hurting foot.

[peacewithoutgod]

Philosophers call things like "color" ... secondary qualities.  They aren't primary ... because color is the result of colorless light interacting with your eyes, that then ascribe them color.  This has been verified ... the color I see as "red" isn't the color anyone else sees as "red".  Of course many animals only see in black and white (gray).  The usual picture of the visible spectrum is a teaching device ... all there is, is a photon with a particular frequency and matching energy (primary qualities).  That has no color.

No, there's no such thing as "colorless light", unless there is no light. All light has color, which is most accurately named by its wavelength. When light of the longest wavelength in the visible light spectrum is reflected by an object, most animals who can perceive colors (some in many species, and all in some are color-blind), most will agree that the light which they see from it is "red". Light of the shortest visible wavelengths are on the blue end, and "violet" is about as short as light wavelengths get. When you see a snowball-white object, you see all of the visible wavelengths being reflected by it. When an object appears to be jet black, then it is not reflecting any of the light which falls on it, it is absorbing all the light that it gets. This is Physics 101, high school level! Color is real, no matter how you perceive it. Whatever your eyes may say to your brain about the wavelengths which you see, red and blue keep their respective numbers.

[Baruch]

Samuel Johnson only proved the Pauli Exclusion Principle, otherwise his rejection of George Berkeley's idealism, would have failed, since matter is mostly empty space, his foot would have gone right thru that rock ;-)

"If the cause is not observable, then light is not primary." ... yes, per QED the Dirac Dual Spinors (relativistic wave function) are the cause, and are not observable, only their effects are observable.  Just like with the humbug in Oz.

"If reality is agreed between us the agreement is primary." ... so commercial law is the basis of the universe?  Really ;-))  That should be good news down at the Temple in London, eh whot?

[jonb]

"If reality is agreed between us the agreement is primary." ... so commercial law is the basis of the universe?  Really ;-))  That should be good news down at the Temple in London, eh whot?

For them it might be, but then we are not in agreement with them are we? As such there is no primary is there?
As such I am still not seeing any ratification for your assertion.

On the other hand, I don't agree with the philosophers.  I think the exact opposite ... it is the color I see, subjectively, that is primary ...

peacewithoutgod, I don't think Baruch is using terms as they would  be used in standard physics, Baruch I think is more based in terms used in philosophy, but as he seems to be mixing the two different disciplines and that can lead to confusion. And in trying to unpick what is being said, to a basic primary school scientist it might seem we are both going against basic principals of physics. This though I don't think is the case.

Terminology even within the sciences has not been standardised for instance even an everyday term like 'Metals' I think still means something quite different to an Astrophysicist than to a chemist.

Consequently when baruch and I are mixing philosophy, physics, and human perception there is going to be some mess created.

[peacewithoutgod]

Jonb, I think you are going to find increasingly, as I did, that Baruch will define any term precisely as it suits him. When he declared himself a "heretic", the heresy was most likely on the rules of intellectual discourse  Anyway, you have my sincerest wishes for good pagan luck on any quest to get anywhere with that one!

[Baruch]

Hydrogen is monoatomic plasma when ionized, it is monoatomic gas if sufficiently hot, it is diatomic molecular gas if at ordinary temperature, it is a liquid if sufficiently cold, it is a solid if colder still ... and under extreme pressure like within the planet Jupiter, it is a metal (and source of the great magnetic field of that planet ... or so astrophysicists say).  So what is a metal?  Depends on the pressure and temperature and how the electron orbitals sort out under those conditions.  Helium for instance is noble, and so cannot ever be a metal under any conditions (or so I seem to remember).

What distinguishes a metallic condition, is the high concentration of free electrons in the quantum band structure.  Sort of like a school of fish, that move in a collective manner when pursued by seal or shark.  Fish sticks frozen in a home freezer don't respond to much of anything ... they act as an insulator.

[peacewithoutgod]

Hydrogen is monoatomic plasma when ionized, it is monoatomic gas if sufficiently hot, it is diatomic molecular gas if at ordinary temperature, it is a liquid if sufficiently cold, it is a solid if colder still ... and under extreme pressure like within the planet Jupiter, it is a metal (and source of the great magnetic field of that planet ... or so astrophysicists say).  So what is a metal?  Depends on the pressure and temperature and how the electron orbitals sort out under those conditions.  Helium for instance is noble, and so cannot ever be a metal under any conditions (or so I seem to remember).

What distinguishes a metallic condition, is the high concentration of free electrons in the quantum band structure.  Sort of like a school of fish, that move in a collective manner when pursued by seal or shark.  Fish sticks frozen in a home freezer don't respond to much of anything ... they act as an insulator.

"Metal" is a chemical, not a state, and Baruch, really, I'm disappointed in you - I know you can bullshit better than that! I've seen you do it.

[Baruch]

i will let others poke fun at your HS level of science education ... copper at a high enough temperature is a gas or plasma.  This is about state, not about where it is in the Periodic Table.

[peacewithoutgod]

i will let others poke fun at your HS level of science education ... copper at a high enough temperature is a gas or plasma.  This is about state, not about where it is in the Periodic Table.

I never was good at chemistry, so I'm waiting for them all to laugh, and will be disappointed if anyone other than you doesn't. Let's see if they can figure out how you made it about metal chemically, and then changed it to "state" when it so suited you.

Oh dear, I still don't hear any laAAUghing!!!

[Hakurei Reimu]

Hydrogen is not a metal. That's a chemical designation. Even astrophysics, which uses the term to describe "any element heavier than helium," hydrogen (lighter than helium) is not a metal. However, hydrogen is theorized to have a metallic state, with some experimental hints though never confirmed, so Baruch is not completely out there.

[Baruch]

There are extreme material states, that would be very nasty.  A ferromagnet only has a small percentage of the outer orbital electrons aligned (see an isolated electron as a little bar magnet).  I have heard it described, that if you took a pound of iron, and aligned all the outer orbital electrons in the same way ... the field would be so strong it would tear the Earth (which is magnetic) apart.