The idea that "you send yourself to hell"

[NakedTracyBlack]

I've never quite gotten the idea that you send yourself to hell.  I'm not sure if it's a purely Christian concept, but I've mostly seen Christians saying it.

"God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself there!"

This ignores a few things.  One, that god created hell as punishment.  A place of eternal punishment and torture.  It's kind of like putting someone in the worst prison in the world, and saying "Well,they sent themselves there!"  Sure, but there's also prisons where you don't burn in a lake of fire for eternity.  Why does punishment require torture?  Surely a good god would not torture people.

Then you have the fact that some people are sent there for various reasons.  If god were real, I'd be going (apparently) because I'm a lesbian.  I'd get the same punishment as Hitler, who was responsible for the death of six million Jews.  So my crime is liking boobs while Hitler's is murdering six million people.  It reminds me of the old religious argument "Why would atheists have morals?  Without god, what would stop you from raping people?"  If I'm going to hell for liking boobs, why shouldn't I kill six million people?  I'm sending myself to hell for liking boobs after all.

It all seems to just be a way to absolve god of creating a place of eternal torture.  Doesn't sound like such a good god to me.   Then again this is the same god that killed everyone but eight people, killed 70,000 for a census that they had nothing to do with, and pretty much tests people's faith because he must be the most insecure god ever.  (To me, those are less a sign of a real god, and more signs that the bible was politically written so as to get converts!  What better way than threat of hell.)

[dtq123]

Do consider that hell can just mean that you are separated from god... I'm feeling nice to them for one

[NakedTracyBlack]

Sure, but the bible only says that like once, compared to the many times it brings up firey fire stuff that burns.  And it's in two different gospels!

Revelation 21:8:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Matthew 13:50:
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43:
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

[Hydra009]

This hell thing would pretty much be the ultimate evil (if it existed), yet God gets off with zero accountability for it:

"God doesn't want to shank you and flay your corpse, but he will if you wear mixed fabrics or do butt stuff or work on the no-work day.  But he's a seriously nice guy.  In fact, he's the most moral guy ever and just can't stand wickedness.

Oookay.  Well, I'm sold on this God character now.  I was pretty doubtful about him before, but I really don't want to be shanked so I'm converting and abiding by all these strange rules now.

[Munch]

Hell is the imaginary prison made up by the same minds of their imaginary sky daddy and imaginary house in the clouds.

Christians once wrote the laws of the land so we're convinced they could make people believe through fear to get them under control. They can no longer execute people for not following their beliefs (unlike Islam) so try to use fear as their attempt to gain followers.

Doesn't matter how big it is, Christianity is just another cult.

[SGOS]

I assume the "You send yourself to Hell," is just a Christian euphemism pointing out that you made an incorrect decision to believe in the wrong god, the wrong thing, or nothing at all.  It's similar to telling a criminal he sent himself to prison, not the courts.  But everyone knows that God sends you Hell, and the Courts send you to prison.  It's just a clever way to make the point that you are responsible for your final destiny.

It would carry more weight, and might even be accurate if it were based on a decision, but of course it's not.  No one decides to send themselves to Hell.  No one decides to become an atheist.  In spite of the false claims of Christians/Muslims, there is no choosing involved in a belief.  That one can choose a belief might be one of the most pervasive faulty perceptions among Christians.

I've seen many a forum member suggest to a visiting theist that they should stop believing just for a week to test their notion that belief is actually a choice.  I have never once seen a response.  The notion is so far outside their strange reality that it seems to pass unheard.  This is why they make the "You send yourself to Hell" claim.

[GSOgymrat]

Do consider that hell can just mean that you are separated from god... I'm feeling nice to them for one

If Hell means separation from God then I'm already in Hell. It's doable.

[SGOS]

If Hell means separation from God then I'm already in Hell. It's doable.

Doable?  Hell, I'm even a bit grateful.

[Solitary]

I've never quite gotten the idea that you send yourself to hell.  I'm not sure if it's a purely Christian concept, but I've mostly seen Christians saying it.

"God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself there!"

This ignores a few things.  One, that god created hell as punishment.  A place of eternal punishment and torture.  It's kind of like putting someone in the worst prison in the world, and saying "Well,they sent themselves there!"  Sure, but there's also prisons where you don't burn in a lake of fire for eternity.  Why does punishment require torture?  Surely a good god would not torture people.

Then you have the fact that some people are sent there for various reasons.  If god were real, I'd be going (apparently) because I'm a lesbian.  I'd get the same punishment as Hitler, who was responsible for the death of six million Jews.  So my crime is liking boobs while Hitler's is murdering six million people.  It reminds me of the old religious argument "Why would atheists have morals?  Without god, what would stop you from raping people?"  If I'm going to hell for liking boobs, why shouldn't I kill six million people?  I'm sending myself to hell for liking boobs after all.

It all seems to just be a way to absolve god of creating a place of eternal torture.  Doesn't sound like such a good god to me.   Then again this is the same god that killed everyone but eight people, killed 70,000 for a census that they had nothing to do with, and pretty much tests people's faith because he must be the most insecure god ever.  (To me, those are less a sign of a real god, and more signs that the bible was politically written so as to get converts!  What better way than threat of hell.)

A great post! And if people stopped believing in God, does that mean they would become immoral? Right there blows holes in their bull shit that atheists can't have morals. And who decides what is moral or not. It sure as hell can't be some out of date religious text. I could never understand that Christ said God is love, and yet when to men love each other, or two woman, or even a quad love each other, how that can be wrong, or how homosexual that love and want to get married is not supporting marriage. Who the fuck says marriage is not a marriage if it is between two people, which is the definition of marriage? I am so sick and tired of Christian deciding other people's fate because they kiss Gods ass and placate Him so they can be saved. Fuck them and the Golden Calf they rode in on!

[Termin]

    The argument that we send ourselves  to hell fails imo, due to the concept of original sin.

[Baruch]

Christianity after 2000 years, comes in many forms and many theologies.  Though most of it is as divergent from the original Jewish form as Mormons seem to other Christians.

Sentencing yourself ... is a bit of pop psychology Christianity.  Nobody thinks that they have any judge at all, not in this world nor the next.  But people are corrupt and liars in this world.  If in the afterlife, you have to be un-corrupt and truthful ... then you will become aware of your own sin, maybe for the first time (ouch!).  So basically your own "truth" convicts you, rather than Jesus or the Father ... if you are asked, you will answer truthfully, and thus convict yourself by honest confession.  This gets muddled up with the Holy Spirit that most Christians don't believe in. 

In Roman times, people had a guardian spirit ... and basically in the original pagan version, your guardian angel acts as your honest witness ... and the angel's testimony convicts you (in Hades).  In Latin this is your "genius" ... aka there are many Roman coins praising the "genius" of the Emperor ... they aren't talking about his Mensa membership, but of his guardian angel.  And those angels you see around ... those are almost entirely pagan.  Actual Jewish angels are quite different, and Muhammad's vision of Gabriel as well ... more like something out of Ezekiel or Revelations.

[GSOgymrat]

Christianity after 2000 years, comes in many forms and many theologies.  Though most of it is as divergent from the original Jewish form as Mormons seem to other Christians.

Sentencing yourself ... is a bit of pop psychology Christianity.  Nobody thinks that they have any judge at all, not in this world nor the next.  But people are corrupt and liars in this world.  If in the afterlife, you have to be un-corrupt and truthful ... then you will become aware of your own sin, maybe for the first time (ouch!).  So basically your own "truth" convicts you, rather than Jesus or the Father ... if you are asked, you will answer truthfully, and thus convict yourself by honest confession.  This gets muddled up with the Holy Spirit that most Christians don't believe in. 

In Roman times, people had a guardian spirit ... and basically in the original pagan version, your guardian angel acts as your honest witness ... and the angel's testimony convicts you (in Hades).  In Latin this is your "genius" ... aka there are many Roman coins praising the "genius" of the Emperor ... they aren't talking about his Mensa membership, but of his guardian angel.  And those angels you see around ... those are almost entirely pagan.  Actual Jewish angels are quite different, and Muhammad's vision of Gabriel as well ... more like something out of Ezekiel or Revelations.

In the not too distant future we will all be continuously monitored by artificial intelligence. Lying will be impossible and justice will be merited fairly by machines incapable of bias. Humans will create their own guardian angels.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I'm going to H E double hockey sticks. ..unless it's overbooked and then it's  H E double dirty q-tips.

[NakedTracyBlack]

Christianity after 2000 years, comes in many forms and many theologies.  Though most of it is as divergent from the original Jewish form as Mormons seem to other Christians.

Sentencing yourself ... is a bit of pop psychology Christianity.  Nobody thinks that they have any judge at all, not in this world nor the next.  But people are corrupt and liars in this world.  If in the afterlife, you have to be un-corrupt and truthful ... then you will become aware of your own sin, maybe for the first time (ouch!).  So basically your own "truth" convicts you, rather than Jesus or the Father ... if you are asked, you will answer truthfully, and thus convict yourself by honest confession.  This gets muddled up with the Holy Spirit that most Christians don't believe in. 

This still doesn't answer how a loving god could create a place of eternal torment for sinners, and why it's an equal punishment for me to have sex with another woman as it is for Hitler to kill 6 million jews.  Seems like I should go and kill 6 million people by this logic.

[Termin]

Christianity after 2000 years, comes in many forms and many theologies.  Though most of it is as divergent from the original Jewish form as Mormons seem to other Christians.

Sentencing yourself ... is a bit of pop psychology Christianity.  Nobody thinks that they have any judge at all, not in this world nor the next.  But people are corrupt and liars in this world.  If in the afterlife, you have to be un-corrupt and truthful ... then you will become aware of your own sin, maybe for the first time (ouch!).  So basically your own "truth" convicts you, rather than Jesus or the Father ... if you are asked, you will answer truthfully, and thus convict yourself by honest confession.  This gets muddled up with the Holy Spirit that most Christians don't believe in. 

In Roman times, people had a guardian spirit ... and basically in the original pagan version, your guardian angel acts as your honest witness ... and the angel's testimony convicts you (in Hades).  In Latin this is your "genius" ... aka there are many Roman coins praising the "genius" of the Emperor ... they aren't talking about his Mensa membership, but of his guardian angel.  And those angels you see around ... those are almost entirely pagan.  Actual Jewish angels are quite different, and Muhammad's vision of Gabriel as well ... more like something out of Ezekiel or Revelations.

So basically a guardian angel is a snitch ? :)

I was not aware of Roman guardian spirits, I'm curious though, was there any superstitions about how to blind them or do things without their knowledge ?