Hello from Chris

[Solitary]

That was quite an introduction Sparky. A lot of things people obsess over are normal because everyone does it. But obsessing over imaginary things that are impossible out side of our mind can make you feel like you are going insane. We live in a society that usually condemns us for who we are or don't meet it standards, and authority figures take advantage of that for their own good. Whatever Our imagination creates, our bodies react to it as if it is real, and we feel the appropriate emotions and feeling, good or bad---heaven or hell. The world could not care one way or another, and is neutral. It is other people that make life a living hell if you are different than their conceived idea of what is normal----this includes psychologists and psychiatrists. Until it can be established what is normal, then how can something be considered abnormal.

Being a homosexual was, and is still considered abnormal, gay marriage is also, along with being an atheist, and God forbid, a free thinker. It is said that people that are mentally ill are out of their minds, when it is actually the opposite. It's when you are obsessively in your mind, and not in objective reality that causes the problem. If one is busy living and working they don't have time to let the devil do his due. "Idol minds are the devils work shop." Is wrong, it's the other way around. This is why meditation and yoga are good, they relax and free you from your mind. "To thy self be true." "A rolling stone gathers no moss!" Doing physical things is how to deal with mental problems. Depressed, skydive, alpine skiing, any extreme sporty. Hyper, listen to good "music that soothes the savage breast."  Obsessed, take up a music instrument, painting pictures, dancing, sports.

Worry and fear, accept them as part of being alive, and just imaginary fears that can't hurt you because they are not real. And remember, your feelings and emotions can cause havoc, but they can't kill you. Letting go of anything you are close to or love can make you feel like you are dying, but it is just a feeling, and nothing more. Be happy, there is no hell accept in our minds. Take care, you are going in the right direction to have peace of mind. Get more active in life and living, experiencing everything you can, good, bad, ugly, beautiful, even love and hate etc. 

[SGOS]

My rational brain is saying 'stuff this, move on and get on with the business of living'. But what prevents that from happening is the intrusive thoughts/visions etc. It's one thing to be almost intellectually convinced in your mind, but it's very difficult to fully trust in that when your own mind can be your enemy

Yeah, I've done that too.  I'm pretty much over it now that I've moved on, but it was a warring struggle for a long time.  It is stunning how the indoctrination takes a hold.  While I don't have those obsessive doubts anymore, they might be still lurking way down in my subconscious, but it's out of mind and no longer a problem as far as I can tell.

I don't worry about it, however.  You simply can't prove nonsense, and most of all, you can't trust it.  Living your life trusting nonsense is chaos.  The reason you can't prove any of it is there no measureable effect from it on anything that happens to you.  People say it has an effect.  They give empty testimony to it, but they are loath to demonstrate an actual correlation.  Reality doesn't change when you let go of irrational beliefs.

Like everyone else, I've had successes and failures.  When I cleared my mind of the nonsense and let go of my belief, the same remained true.  Except that I've had one success after my conversion that is worth more than money.  It's a greater degree of peace of mind.  This was something that bothered me most of my life.  I'm grateful for getting a taste of it.  I'm not perfect at it, I'm just better at it.  I was torturing myself before trying to make sense of religion, trying to accept it fully, but always unable to fit those round pegs in the square holes.

None of this was a choice.  I wish it were so easy.  What I struggled with was allowing myself to embrace the reason, that confounding thing that was always there lurking amid the chaos, but which I was too frightened to accept because of the brainwashing.

[Sparky]

One of the criticisms against the existence of a god is that there's so much evil/wrong/badness in the world. If there is a god, why isn't/are he/she/they doing something about it all?

The reply I've heard from Christian camps is that "bad things occur because of the fall". In other words, things are tough now because we have left the paradisical state of Eden and are now suffering for that. Things are corrupt because this is 'now', a corrupt world.

For me, the above is one of the hardest arguments to refute from an atheist point of view.

How do you debate the above argument (that the world we live in has its fair share of horror because of the fall)?

[SGOS]

How do you debate the above argument (that the world we live in has its fair share of horror because of the fall)?

Call it evil if you must.  It does exist, whether a loving god exists or not.  Corruption, war, starvation will continue.  Every species that ever lived has had to compete, sometimes with "evil" consequences.  It's part of life, and always has been.  Does this refute the existence of God?  I dunno, but the important point is that it does absolutely nothing to prove his existence either.  And proving God's existence should be the absolute first order of business in any rationally directed culture.  When the proof fails, it should be discarded.

The apologetics about the fall is just fluff.  Before anyone starts to spew out apologetics for things that don't make sense, they need to establish the truth about the whole concept they center their lives around.

Why evil?... Because it's the Devil, or fall, or whatever.  What an elaborate system of unsupported drivel.  How this can remain a part of human culture speaks to the ignorance of man, not to the glory of God.

[Sparky]

Call it evil if you must.  It does exist, whether a loving god exists or not.  Corruption, war, starvation will continue.  Every species that ever lived has had to compete, sometimes with "evil" consequences.  It's part of life, and always has been.  Does this refute the existence of God?  I dunno, but the important point is that it does absolutely nothing to prove his existence either.  And proving God's existence should be the absolute first order of business in any rationally directed culture.  When the proof fails, it should be discarded.

The apologetics about the fall is just fluff.  Before anyone starts to spew out apologetics for things that don't make sense, they need to establish the truth about the whole concept they center their lives around.

Why evil?... Because it's the Devil, or fall, or whatever.  What an elaborate system of unsupported drivel.  How this can remain a part of human culture speaks to the ignorance of man, not to the glory of God.

Well said

[Mike Cl]

One of the criticisms against the existence of a god is that there's so much evil/wrong/badness in the world. If there is a god, why isn't/are he/she/they doing something about it all?

The reply I've heard from Christian camps is that "bad things occur because of the fall". In other words, things are tough now because we have left the paradisical state of Eden and are now suffering for that. Things are corrupt because this is 'now', a corrupt world.

For me, the above is one of the hardest arguments to refute from an atheist point of view.

How do you debate the above argument (that the world we live in has its fair share of horror because of the fall)?

There are many paths to refuting 'the fall'.  The Genesis itself contradicts itself in Chpt. 1 & 2.  Different stories with Eden only in Chpt. 2.  Ask them to prove that the christian creation story is any different than any other of  dozens of other creation stories.  Ask for reasons to accept that the bible is anything more than the ramblings of a few unknown authors.  The key element in all of this is to ask for reasons and not beliefs.  Most that I have talked to, present their beliefs or the beliefs of their "leaders" as proof of the truth of something.  When asked to show some empirical evidence  of some sort, the fall back on their 'sincere' beliefs--can't offer any empirical evidence when none exists.

[Solitary]

The hardest thing to prove by looking, is that there is a black cat in a dark room, especially if there isn't one there.

[peacewithoutgod]

Chris, I'm new to this forum too, and hoping we found the right place. I really feel for you, having been through so many of the hells which you've seen. My parents took care of their kids, but they themselves were damaged and insecure on their own religious philosophy, they had parental issues of their own, and they could do nothing good to help me with my mental health problems. They thought the local "Christian Academy", run by ultra- conservative right wing Baptists who associated with militant nut jobs was better for me than the public school or any conventional education system, despite not believing most of their ideas themselves. They were struggling with their own religious identity and ideas, having fled the oppression of 1950's Catholicism. They had no idea how profound the impact was on me to hear my teachers condemning all Catholics (my then-living and loving grandparents) as hellbound idolaters! Being on the autism spectrum made all these conflicts of ideas very hard to sort out as a child, and I went home all too often unable to sleep at night. Or, I would wake up with nightmares and panic attacks after hearing my teachers discuss their cruel fantasies of hellfire, which they said awaits all who don't "believe" like they who are too fundamentally dishonest to understand the proper difference between "believe" and terror-driven submission. Believe me, I saw the absolute worst side of Christian "kindness" and "love" while I was there! That experience only deepened my mistrust of parents, teachers, and all authority figures, and further marred my ability to function in the world for life. I tried, like you are now, to find a home in Christianity, but wherever I went it soon became clear that I could not go on there. At the evangelical churches my questions were met with trite bible quotes, circular reasoning, and anecdotal "proofs" which I was much too intelligent not to recognize as either dishonest or simply ignorant, and the conservative Christians were downright hostile to my inquiries.  The only people who had any interest in questions which I knew were natural and deserved to be dealt with honestly were in circles such as this one here. I'm really glad you found your way to this sensible crowd!

[Sparky]

Chris, I'm new to this forum too, and hoping we found the right place. I really feel for you, having been through so many of the hells which you've seen. My parents took care of their kids, but they themselves were damaged and insecure on their own religious philosophy, they had parental issues of their own, and they could do nothing good to help me with my mental health problems. They thought the local "Christian Academy", run by ultra- conservative right wing Baptists who associated with militant nut jobs was better for me than the public school or any conventional education system, despite not believing most of their ideas themselves. They were struggling with their own religious identity and ideas, having fled the oppression of 1950's Catholicism. They had no idea how profound the impact was on me to hear my teachers condemning all Catholics (my then-living and loving grandparents) as hellbound idolaters! Being on the autism spectrum made all these conflicts of ideas very hard to sort out as a child, and I went home all too often unable to sleep at night. Or, I would wake up with nightmares and panic attacks after hearing my teachers discuss their cruel fantasies of hellfire, which they said awaits all who don't "believe" like they who are too fundamentally dishonest to understand the proper difference between "believe" and terror-driven submission. Believe me, I saw the absolute worst side of Christian "kindness" and "love" while I was there! That experience only deepened my mistrust of parents, teachers, and all authority figures, and further marred my ability to function in the world for life. I tried, like you are now, to find a home in Christianity, but wherever I went it soon became clear that I could not go on there. At the evangelical churches my questions were met with trite bible quotes, circular reasoning, and anecdotal "proofs" which I was much too intelligent not to recognize as either dishonest or simply ignorant, and the conservative Christians were downright hostile to my inquiries.  The only people who had any interest in questions which I knew were natural and deserved to be dealt with honestly were in circles such as this one here. I'm really glad you found your way to this sensible crowd!

Hopefully some sense comes from it all

Nice post, thanks for sharing