Does Privilege Matter?

[Baruch]

Gawdzilla Sama - that is the normal way to feel, you are perfectly normal.  Unless you are a family or personal history as a perp ... then it is hard to relate to some people's feelings of tribal guilt (say how Germans feel about WW II, but Japanese do not).  But taking the Irish example ... should the English still feel bad about what their ancestors did to Ireland in the 1840s?  Some would say yes.  Others would also say, when you ancestors came to America, they took on the collective guilt of America, as part of their citizenship.  Of course maybe both of those POVs are crazy.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Gawdzilla Sama - that is the normal way to feel, you are perfectly normal.  Unless you are a family or personal history as a perp ... then it is hard to relate to some people's feelings of tribal guilt (say how Germans feel about WW II, but Japanese do not).  But taking the Irish example ... should the English still feel bad about what their ancestors did to Ireland in the 1840s?  Some would say yes.  Others would also say, when you ancestors came to America, they took on the collective guilt of America, as part of their citizenship.  Of course maybe both of those POVs are crazy.

I think we have the problem of Original Sin here. And I find OS to be just a way to exploit fear in people. "You may have lead a blameless life, but you're still going to Hell because of something some dumb teenager did 6,000 years ago." Without OS people could decide that they hadn't done anything bad enough to be condemned to eternal torment by their Loving God®. But with OS they can be guilty by inheritance. It's a clever trick if we don't think about, but falls apart on examination.

[Mermaid]

Ditto, which points up nicely the futility of the campaign to make "everybody but me" feel bad.

No.

[Mermaid]

I think we have the problem of Original Sin here. And I find OS to be just a way to exploit fear in people. "You may have lead a blameless life, but you're still going to Hell because of something some dumb teenager did 6,000 years ago." Without OS people could decide that they hadn't done anything bad enough to be condemned to eternal torment by their Loving God®. But with OS they can be guilty by inheritance. It's a clever trick if we don't think about, but falls apart on examination.

You are demonstrating the issue quite well here, actually.

Being aware of circumstance and privilege is not about guilt, it's about not blaming people for things they cannot control.

Have you ever been pulled over for driving while black?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You are demonstrating the issue quite well here, actually.

Being aware of circumstance and privilege is not about guilt, it's about not blaming people for things they cannot control.

Have you ever been pulled over for driving while black?

No, but I was with a guy who was pulled over. The cop apologized and sent us on our way. (Having federal officer IDs helped a bit with that.)

You do suggest a scenario that is more legend than fact, I believe. Most people in the US can go years without being pulled over for anything at all. The inflation of the "driving while black" meme is, I believe, just a way to score points in the Social Game.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

No.

Yes.

[Mermaid]

No, but I was with a guy who was pulled over. The cop apologized and sent us on our way. (Having federal officer IDs helped a bit with that.)

You do suggest a scenario that is more legend than fact, I believe. Most people in the US can go years without being pulled over for anything at all. The inflation of the "driving while black" meme is, I believe, just a way to score points in the Social Game.

So your one personal experience is proof that it's all bullshit. Actually it's a genuine phenomenon. Your denial of facts only highlights a very real problem.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So your one personal experience is proof that it's all bullshit. Actually it's a genuine phenomenon. Your denial of facts only highlights a very real problem.

Where did I say that my "one personal experience is proof that it's all bullshit"?

[Mermaid]

No, but I was with a guy who was pulled over. The cop apologized and sent us on our way. (Having federal officer IDs helped a bit with that.)

You do suggest a scenario that is more legend than fact, I believe. Most people in the US can go years without being pulled over for anything at all. The inflation of the "driving while black" meme is, I believe, just a way to score points in the Social Game.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

That's not what you suggested in your post. You stated that I made a claim of "bullshit", when I didn't. Creative, but inaccurate.

[Mermaid]

That's not what you suggested in your post. You stated that I made a claim of "bullshit", when I didn't. Creative, but inaccurate.

So that wasn't the implication? What was your point by making these statements then?

Is this not your argument that white privilege is a myth? If not, can you clarify? I have no desire to twist anyone's words, I am reflecting what I hear. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Baruch]

A matter of perception ... if I go a lifetime without being pulled over and abused by a cop ... then the cops seem OK.  If I have been pulled over and abused even once ... I am now sensitized to the problem.  If I am African-American in the US, and see what the swarms of White racists are up to ... I am going to be concerned, even if I have never been pulled over by a cop.  Fortunately I don't put a Star of David on my car and ride thru KKK neighborhoods ... that is my White privilege ... I pass as a redneck.

Original sin?  Kind of.  But bigger than that.  I benefit right now, in person, because of unfair advantages I have.  Part of it is because of my race, tribe, nationality.  Especially nationality.  Americans consume 4x their share of the global GDP ... and it isn't because we are so virtuous as to be rewarded ... it is because since Roanoke we are the biggest bastards on the planet.  You may be unaware of how much you unfairly benefit from your status.  Thank G-d there is no justice ... I no longer call for it or want it.  I won't have to live in this monkey cage forever ... I hope.

On the other hand, life is unfair.  I acknowledge that I am unfair myself in my own actions, in the actions today of my nationality etc ... both now and into the past.  I am in touch with my inner perp ... not proud of it, but I am aware and honest with myself.  Of course if one is a complete individual, who denies all collectivism both in ideology and over time ... then one can rationalize that one is nearly innocent.  But not innocent of sociopathy.  Idiot and ideology have the same root.  And yes, I am an idiot too ... and aware of my sociopathic complicity ... I didn't shoot the bank teller, but I sure am hell driving the getaway car ;-)

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So that wasn't the implication? What was your point by making these statements then?

Is this not your argument that white privilege is a myth? If not, can you clarify? I have no desire to twist anyone's words, I am reflecting what I hear. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I stated that most people have little or no interface with people on any kind of frequency.  I do believe that "white privilege" is guilt-tripping, and that this kind of thing has been discredited already.

And you did twist my words, if you truly don't have a desire to do that I would suggest you post more precisely. I will call bullshit when I see it.

[Mermaid]

I stated that most people have little or no interface with people on any kind of frequency.  I do believe that "white privilege" is guilt-tripping, and that this kind of thing has been discredited already.

And you did twist my words, if you truly don't have a desire to do that I would suggest you post more precisely. I will call bullshit when I see it.

Uh. Ok.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Here's an example of privilege of sorts in a court room.  Several years ago I was caught driving with no license,  under a suspension. To be honest I've lost count how many times that's happened to me,  but in court there was me and a young black guy. It was probably the 5th or 6th time I'd been nabbed.  It almost always was because of a tail light or some dumb shit driving around in my old hoopties. The fact of the matter was before that I thought I was the best drunk driver alive.
So anyway I'm talking to the guy and he had just lost his license because his insurance lapsed and he got stopped and had to go to court. I'd asked if he had anything else on his record and he told me he'd never been arrested for anything before that so I assumed he would just be fined and go home.  Instead the judge gave him 30 days in jail and they cuffed him in the court room on the spot.
I was next and my record wasn't so spiffy and I'd had a few DUI convictions to boot so I was feeling on shaky ground at that point.
I walked out of the court room with just a fine that I still haven't paid all these years later.  I don't know if you could call it privilege or prejudice or just plain shit luck,  but it didn't feel right then and doesn't feel right now.