Nine killed at church shooting in SC.

[Mike Cl]

Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.

Faux News and courtesy or truth have never gotten along well.

[Johan]

What about accidental gun deaths and injuries?

Not sure about injuries, but accidental shooting deaths also went up after the ban.

[Sargon The Grape]

That and Americans stop being so afraid. Americans typically say they own guns to protect themselves from their fellow citizens.

I'm more worried about the ones who want to protect themselves from big bad gubnit. There are seriously people out there who think their little popgun is gonna protect them from an RPG or an Abrams.

[Mike Cl]

The shooter has now confessed he wanted to start a race war.  And some people who knew him said he had talked about it.  So, why is this labeled a hate crime and not an act of terrorism?  Is a hate crime easier to prove?  Can both be proven to be true in a court?  I am interested to see what they find when they trace his connections.  I really don't think this was figured out in a vacuum.  Will this lead to a group of white supremacists actively operating in that area?  I wonder what connection daddy has to all of this?  And I wonder if this will all be sort of all swept under the rug by calling him a lone wold druggy gone rogue?   

[GSOgymrat]

Are the consequences different if it is classified as terrorism, hate crime or nine counts of first degree murder?

[SGOS]

The shooter has now confessed he wanted to start a race war.  And some people who knew him said he had talked about it.  So, why is this labeled a hate crime and not an act of terrorism?  Is a hate crime easier to prove?  Can both be proven to be true in a court?  I am interested to see what they find when they trace his connections.  I really don't think this was figured out in a vacuum.  Will this lead to a group of white supremacists actively operating in that area?  I wonder what connection daddy has to all of this?  And I wonder if this will all be sort of all swept under the rug by calling him a lone wold druggy gone rogue?   

I'd call it murder.  I'd go nuts trying to decide what the motivation was.  Murder is good enough for me.  That would be something if they charged him with a hate crime and the defense proved it was terrorism, so the judge dismissed the case.  Hey don't laugh; Strange things happen in the legal system.

[Mike Cl]

Are the consequences different if it is classified as terrorism, hate crime or nine counts of first degree murder?

I don't know the answers to those questions.  But I do think the murder counts are enhanced, in that it is easier to get a death penalty--and I think S. Carolina has that.  But I'm not sure.  And then, will this be a state crime or a federal crime?  Will the state try it first, and if the US govt. doesn't like the outcome, try it on a federal level charge? 

[Mike Cl]

I'd call it murder.  I'd go nuts trying to decide what the motivation was.  Murder is good enough for me.  That would be something if they charged him with a hate crime and the defense proved it was terrorism, so the judge dismissed the case.  Hey don't laugh; Strange things happen in the legal system.

Quite clearly it is murder.  I don't think we need to twist ourselves in a knot on this guy's motivation.  He is a white supremacist and he wanted to start a race war.  The KKK may not be in the headlines, but it is far from being dead!  If Isis can recruit 'lone wolves' in this country, why can't the KKK do the same in this country?  The history of the KKK is strong with this type of activity.  Does anybody really think it has stopped?  In the South that I knew, the Civil War never happened--it was the "War of Yankee Aggression" and there was a small group ready to re-fight it again.  South Carolina flies the confederate battle flag.  What does that say about that state?  So, is it such a stretch that this guy was a lone wolf acting in what he considered to be a larger picture, who would be willing to give his life much like a suicide bomber?  And give his life much like Booth thought he was doing--to start a cleansing race war?  I don't see it as being that far-fetched.   

[Poison Tree]

Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.

And yet I always hear the right lecturing gun control supporters against politicizing tragedies.

[Sargon The Grape]

Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.

Actually, they will go after the wounded and the sick sometimes. So I'd say it's an apt description.

[Johan]

I'm more worried about the ones who want to protect themselves from big bad gubnit. There are seriously people out there who think their little popgun is gonna protect them from an RPG or an Abrams.

I'm inclined to disagree. One of the employees I manage is one of these guys. He has forgotten more about the specifics of ballistic weapons than you or I will ever know. He does not for a moment think his personal arsenal is going to protect him from the gubment or their army. He knows exactly what his weapons are capable of as well as exactly what weapons they have and exactly what they're capable of and he does not for a second think that he can win. But his attitude is guns are legal so I'm gonna own em' and if they ever come to git me, I'll at least give them a fight they'll not soon forget.

Don't get me wrong, I still think he's batshit crazy and tell him so. But on that score, I think he at least approaches being rational. I don't agree with it obviously. But I think he's at least rational about it. I suspect you will find that most others of his ilk are exactly like him in that respect.

[Johan]

The shooter has now confessed he wanted to start a race war.  And some people who knew him said he had talked about it.  So, why is this labeled a hate crime and not an act of terrorism?  Is a hate crime easier to prove?  Can both be proven to be true in a court? 

I don't think what happens in court is what really matters here. I mean yes, he should stand in court and be convicted. But he killed nine so hate crime or terrorist doesn't really make a difference as far as he goes. He's not going to take another breath as a free man ever again either way.

I think the far bigger issue in this deal is how it exposes the dirty little secret that is racism in this country in 2015 and how we will once again do absolutely fucking nothing about it. If he was muslim and he had walked into a black church and killed nine black americans, there would be an outcry to declare war on all muslims. Muslim mosques all over this country would be in flames at this very moment. Vote grabbing senators would be proposing legislation to force all muslims to register their name and address or some such bullshit. In short, we as Americans would be chomping at the bit to go to war with someone because a gat damned muslim killed nine of our own.

But instead when a racist white bread coward does it, we feign concern and say oh the horror and he shouldn't of oughta done that and then we go back to our normally scheduled day. At the most, we try to blame it on those silly Americans and their silly obsession with guns and when will they ever learn....

This front page news event was an act of out and out racism and nothing but. And we as a country will once again do absolutely nothing to even acknowledge that much less actually try to do even the smallest thing to fix it. A muslim does it? And suddenly it doesn't matter that the victims were black, we're invading a fucking country over it if it fucking kills us. But some cowardly white bread American born faggot* does it? And its well they were black but lets not get too crazy and you know, racism doesn't really exist so this is obviously just a tragic event of one lone lost soul and nothing to see here, move along now. 

How much of a fucking wake up call do we fucking need? 100 years from now, this event won't be more than footnote in any history books... er, wiki pages.... er, whatever. Just one more heinous example of hate that went largely unnoticed by the group of racist bigots that are collectively known as Americans.  Go team.


*Yeah I said faggot. If we're going to decide that its a hate word (and it is) then we may as well use it for its intended purpose. So I think it fits quite well in this case.

[Mike Cl]

I don't think what happens in court is what really matters here. I mean yes, he should stand in court and be convicted. But he killed nine so hate crime or terrorist doesn't really make a difference as far as he goes. He's not going to take another breath as a free man ever again either way.

I think the far bigger issue in this deal is how it exposes the dirty little secret that is racism in this country in 2015 and how we will once again do absolutely fucking nothing about it. If he was muslim and he had walked into a black church and killed nine black americans, there would be an outcry to declare war on all muslims. Muslim mosques all over this country would be in flames at this very moment. Vote grabbing senators would be proposing legislation to force all muslims to register their name and address or some such bullshit. In short, we as Americans would be chomping at the bit to go to war with someone because a gat damned muslim killed nine of our own.

But instead when a racist white bread coward does it, we feign concern and say oh the horror and he shouldn't of oughta done that and then we go back to our normally scheduled day. At the most, we try to blame it on those silly Americans and their silly obsession with guns and when will they ever learn....

This front page news event was an act of out and out racism and nothing but. And we as a country will once again do absolutely nothing to even acknowledge that much less actually try to do even the smallest thing to fix it. A muslim does it? And suddenly it doesn't matter that the victims were black, we're invading a fucking country over it if it fucking kills us. But some cowardly white bread American born faggot* does it? And its well they were black but lets not get too crazy and you know, racism doesn't really exist so this is obviously just a tragic event of one lone lost soul and nothing to see here, move along now. 

How much of a fucking wake up call do we fucking need? 100 years from now, this event won't be more than footnote in any history books... er, wiki pages.... er, whatever. Just one more heinous example of hate that went largely unnoticed by the group of racist bigots that are collectively known as Americans.  Go team.


*Yeah I said faggot. If we're going to decide that its a hate word (and it is) then we may as well use it for its intended purpose. So I think it fits quite well in this case.

Yes, absolutely--you read my mind.  The confederate battle flag still flies.  The blacks are still black.  Whites and those in govt. will make the appropriate sounds and all will go on as it has been.  I don't read facebook or any social media, so I won't know if this prediction will pass or not--but I bet in the next few weeks the racists will make their presence known--the support for this subhuman will come out.  I have to wonder--where is the KKK in all of this?  I know they are alive and well; they have a huge hotbed in CA, in Tracy.  I got more than my fair share in the juvenile hall school I taught at--fully tatted, shaved head and simply subhuman, knuckle dragging creature--each and every one.  I had a very hard time being civil to them.  I digress.  Amerkia the wonderful--the place where there is no racism--women enjoy equal rights and pay--all public schools are equal--people kill people, guns don't--nobody is in prison--trickle down economics work--corporations are people and war is peace.  Gotta love it!

[Johan]

Yes, absolutely--you read my mind.  The confederate battle flag still flies.  The blacks are still black.  Whites and those in govt. will make the appropriate sounds and all will go on as it has been.  I don't read facebook or any social media, so I won't know if this prediction will pass or not--but I bet in the next few weeks the racists will make their presence known--the support for this subhuman will come out.  I have to wonder--where is the KKK in all of this?  I know they are alive and well; they have a huge hotbed in CA, in Tracy.  I got more than my fair share in the juvenile hall school I taught at--fully tatted, shaved head and simply subhuman, knuckle dragging creature--each and every one.  I had a very hard time being civil to them.  I digress.  Amerkia the wonderful--the place where there is no racism--women enjoy equal rights and pay--all public schools are equal--people kill people, guns don't--nobody is in prison--trickle down economics work--corporations are people and war is peace.  Gotta love it!

You agree, I agree and we are obviously not alone. And yet, this is still the America we end up with. Why is that? What are you and I not doing enough of? I'm a smart guy and I think you are too but for the life of me I don't understand why this is the reality we seem to be stuck with. Racism simply will not die.

I am not at all a fan of the (I believe) misguided thought that certain otherwise undesirable character flaws are simply genetics. The don juans of the world will tell you that men are genetically wired to spread their seed and that's why guys cheat and sleep with anything that moves. Hogwash. Men are perfectly capable of being faithful and displaying good character so if you want to whore yourself out to anyone who will spread their legs in order to get your dick wet, so be it but own it. Don't argue genetics to justify your own lack of good character.

But this racism stuff? I just don't know. We are collectively the most intelligent individuals that have ever inhabited the surface of this planet. At least as far as we know. And yet we still cannot help but act like raw savages toward one another. It seems like a cop out to fall back on it but I have to wonder if genetically we as a group are simply not capable of achieving the idealogical heights which we seem to so easily convince ourselves we've already attained individually.

[hrdlr110]

Racism = fear. We fear what we do not know. We do not know that which we have not learned. Education, as it often is the case,  is the answer.