The Deceit Of Islam Part Two, (violence against women)

[Canadian Atheist]

Check er out buds! Let me know what you think!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txd2vzASgPM

[Solitary]

I don't know what is worst, Islamic apologists or Christian apologists that pick and choose, or are hypocrites that believe in the same God (Allah.) From what is going on in the world with extreme Islamics and extreme Christians, I would say Islamic extremists are worst. Christians  have individual extremists that do harm from their religion, but Islamic ones are of organized and do far greater harm.

[Baruch]

Yes, there are a lot of rhetorical gambits on this subject.  Can we possibly cut thru them?  Apologists and fanatics are not of much help.

Let me give an analogy ... when bigotry is tied to State power, it can be racism.  So given that in an approximate sense, the recent killing at a Black church was the result of bigotry, it wasn't the result of racism, because the perpetrator wasn't an agent of the State carrying out State policy.  Violent bigots are bad enough, but that is a far cry from systematic oppression (as many gays have faced in more recent times because being gay doesn't count as a religion).

So if there is no separation of religion and State ... as is true in any declared Islamic country ... then any bigotry of the people may have, may be reflected in State policy, and carried out by State actors.  Pakistan is a good example, where a mere accusation of blasphemy, if you are a minority, can lead to execution.  This doesn't happen in the US, because of the relative separation of religion and State ... there are usually no legal consequences for lack of religion or being of the wrong religion.  But these are very real in Islamic states.

Unfortunately the separation of religion and State in the US is always tenuous because there are factions seeking to "establish" some specific religion (generic religion didn't originally fall under the Bill of Rights prohibition) as paramount in a political sense.  This unique situation happened because of Anglo-American history, and is not shared by other cultures, including Islamic ones.  So in that way, because of history and culture, particularly in their own countries, Islam is far more dangerous than Christianity (since it has emerged from colonialism) ... but there is no reason why the aggression of Christians won't return, and reacquire State support at some future date.

he primary problem I have with the 60s generation is that their revolution was partial, then dumped in favor of Middle Class materialism.  It had no chance to be well rooted, and was swept away by the Republican and Evangelical revolutions of the 1980s.  There was a greening of America, but because of lack of care, the lawn died.

[Canadian Atheist]

Islamic apologists are far worse for a few reasons. The first is that they are morally aloud to deceive non-Muslims if it helps farther Islam. secondly, its violent as fuck. look up the deceit of Islam part 3 for an example.

[Baruch]

The rule of Islamic deceit is a tricky subject.  Sunnis are not allowed to do it.  Non-Sunnis (including Shia) are allowed to do it ... originally to protect themselves in Sunni-majority communities.  For a Sunni to lie, is a fundamental heresy.  Not that it doesn't happen.  Like the "true scotsman" argument ... any Sunni who lies, is not a true Sunni.  Then the question remains, have there been any true Sunnis?  Certainly from the Sunni perspective, non-Sunnis are heretics who deserve death.  And in fact many Sufis, are regarded as non-Sunni by the Sunnis, hence the oppression of the relatively liberal Sufis by the relatively conservative Sunnis.

Are you saying that Christians and Jews are not allowed to lie, like the Sunnis?  And if so, are there any true Christians or true Jews?  Also there are plenty of times that Christians and Jews are violent ... see Benjamin Netanyahu and George W Bush.

[baronvonrort]

The rule of Islamic deceit is a tricky subject.  Sunnis are not allowed to do it.  Non-Sunnis (including Shia) are allowed to do it ... originally to protect themselves in Sunni-majority communities.  For a Sunni to lie, is a fundamental heresy.

Sunnis are allowed to tell lies in 3 circumstances
1.Allowed to lie to wife
2.Allowed to lie to reconcile 2 or more people
3.Allowed to lie in time of war.
Non muslim land is called Dar al Harb or land of war,see #3.

Taqiyya is a shia concept the sunni don't do it.

[Baruch]

Well that is the problem since Caliph Umar, the ancient idea of trial by combat.  Do you believe that the Muslims are Christian heretics to be destroyed by the Byzantine Emperor?  Do you think that Islam has been continuously at war for 1400 years?  Do you believe that the Prophet Muhammad was entirely predatory ... and didn't show, relative to his time and place, an integrity and honesty that was special?  In Arabic culture, pre-Islamic ... lying is not allowed.  It was the corruption of the Quraysh that caused their defeat, and the integrity of Prophet Muhammad which won their civil war.

The Quran may have made exceptions, except that the Quran wasn't assembled until the time of Caliph Umar, and not finalized until the time of Caliph Uthman.  And it was the existence of that Quran (the Hadith were not in circulation until 200 years later) that defeated Caliph Ali (laylat al-harir) when he was faced with the first version of ISIS ... the puritanical Kharijites, who are the real ancestors of the Wahhabis.  Prophet Muhammad's idea of war was much more restricted than that of Caliph Umar.  Of course since the time of Caliph Umar ... this may be moot.  Are you saying that non-Muslims never fight, never lie?

[pr126]

The rule of Islamic deceit is a tricky subject.  Sunnis are not allowed to do it.  Non-Sunnis (including Shia) are allowed to do it ... originally to protect themselves in Sunni-majority communities.  For a Sunni to lie, is a fundamental heresy.  Not that it doesn't happen.  Like the "true scotsman" argument ... any Sunni who lies, is not a true Sunni.  Then the question remains, have there been any true Sunnis?  Certainly from the Sunni perspective, non-Sunnis are heretics who deserve death.  And in fact many Sufis, are regarded as non-Sunni by the Sunnis, hence the oppression of the relatively liberal Sufis by the relatively conservative Sunnis.

Are you saying that Christians and Jews are not allowed to lie, like the Sunnis?  And if so, are there any true Christians or true Jews?  Also there are plenty of times that Christians and Jews are violent ... see Benjamin Netanyahu and George W Bush.

Yes, they (Sunnis) are allowed to lie if it is in the service of Islam. It is in the Quran.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm

[pr126]

Sunnis are allowed to tell lies in 3 circumstances
1.Allowed to lie to wife
2.Allowed to lie to reconcile 2 or more people
3.Allowed to lie in time of war.
Non muslim land is called Dar al Harb or land of war,see #3.

Taqiyya is a shia concept the sunni don't do it.

Your point 3 is interesting.
Since Muslims are in eternal, unending war with unbelievers, see Quran 2:193 8:39  the war is ongoing until all religion is for Allah.

Muslims are commanded to do jihad, unless they are weak. as soon as they are powerful enough, jihad must resume.

[Baruch]

Unfortunately, if some large segment of humanity still believes in trial by combat (context of international relations 1400 years ago) ... then humanity is toast.  This could be the Muslims ... or it could be the projection of the barbaric Faranj (Arabic term for Crusaders).  Or it could be the Chinese etc.  Only history can validate that ... unless a large portion of humanity is interviewed, and the interviewees are honest with the interviewer.  Basically male testosterone leads to extinction.  I don't believe this is limited to one particular segment of humanity, any more than I think the Germans of WW II were unique.

[baronvonrort]

Your point 3 is interesting.
Since Muslims are in eternal, unending war with unbelievers, see Quran 2:193 8:39  the war is ongoing until all religion is for Allah.

Muslims are commanded to do jihad, unless they are weak. as soon as they are powerful enough, jihad must resume.

Taqiyya is a shia concept, a bit like mutah and misyar marriages get your terms right and you can win 72 houris.

Is it permissible to lie to kafirs?

Lying is a reprehensible and blameworthy characteristic and is not appropriate whether in earnest or in jest.
There is no concession allowing it except in cases of necessity in order to achieve some definite sharia interest that cannot be obtained by telling the truth.

"I never heard the messenger of Allah grant a concession allowing any kind of lying except in 3 cases,a man who says something intending thereby to bring about reconciliation:a man who says something at the time of war:and a man talking to his wife"
islamqa.info/en/175632

The messenger of Allah said-
He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things,is not a liar.
sunnah.com/bukhari/53/3

[drunkenshoe]

Sunnis invented and modified ways to get very near to takkiya.


PS I give you permission to post in other threads.














No hugs?

[pr126]

Sunni Muslims and their apologist say that takiyya is solely a  shia affair.

Which is in itself is also a takiyya. To fool the cursed infidel.

If whatever is in the service and the advancement of Islam, it is permitted, even obligatory.

Allahu Akbar.

[Baruch]

Sounds just like Anglo-American foreign policy to me.  Imperialism is ... a universal disease.  This isn't to excuse Muslim politics.  Takiyya was invented by Athenian politicians ... not by Spartan warriors.  But then Spartan honesty would kill you more directly.

[drunkenshoe]

Sunni Muslims and their apologist say that takiyya is solely a  shia affair.

And?