AA Meetings

[Savior2006]

Don't despair when you fall of the wagon (or what do they call it). You can get on again. I fell of after eight years and resumed my more agreeable behavior after some disagreeable months! Been there ever since!

Thank you.

As another update I went to perhaps my eighth meeting (I stopped counting after a while) and I'm feeling a lot better about the program.

I said before that I absolutely wouldn't "come out," but we were on Step Six, which is about asking God to remove our flaws, and of course we had to have a discussion to that effect. I said in the nicest manner possible that completing many of the 12 steps would not be possible for me because I'm not spiritual. Instead I told them about how I would just do different things to get my mind off of drinking: reading, writing, playing video games, job hunting, etc,.

They seemed pretty open minded and even-toned. They said that the 12 were suggestions. They emphasized that, and that took me by surprise. In all the  previous meetings (in different locations of course) I didn't get the sense that the steps were only suggestions. I imagine people in AA will tell me differently one way or the other.

Anyways, I like this group a lot. Hopefully that positive feeling is not misplaced. They did suggest I read "We Agnostics" and I didn't have the heart to tell them that I thought that chapter sucked the root.

[SGOS]

They seemed pretty open minded and even-toned. They said that the 12 were suggestions. They emphasized that, and that took me by surprise. In all the  previous meetings (in different locations of course) I didn't get the sense that the steps were only suggestions. I imagine people in AA will tell me differently one way or the other.

The meeting formats are always very similar, but the group dynamics and tolerance for diversity vary from group to group.  I've been to meetings on both sides of the lower 48, a fishing village in Alaska, and several places in between.  When I was getting my boat seaworthy in San Pedro, California, I got a list of a jillion meetings in the local area.  The closest one to my boat was the biggest I've ever attended.  There were about 150 or so regulars there (I'm partial to smaller groups, since I like to participate more).  But this meeting was in Downtown San Pedro and was associated with a half way house for rehabilitating prison convicts.

So I'm sitting there the first night surrounded by more tattoos than I've ever seen at one time, but what a welcoming group of joyful people.  I suspect many of them went to prison for doing stupid things they wouldn't have done sober, and there was a lot of positive energy.  They made me go to the front of the group and introduce myself.  So I'm making a speech and making eye contact with everyone, and I saw a lot of genuinely happy people looking back at me.

But hanging out with ex-cons is not my usual environment, and in spite of the welcome, I still felt a little out of place, so I got out a map and located a meeting half way between San Pedro and Palos Verdes.  I didn't explore any meetings in Palos Verdes, because I thought I probably wouldn't fit in any better with wealthy people from gated communities with views of the Pacific Ocean any more than I would with ex-cons at a half way house.  I figured geographically in-between the two would be more like me.

The next group was the one I chose to get involved with.  It was small, perhaps 10 to 15 more average people (one guy even wore a sport jacket all the time), and I fit in.  They seemed happy to have me there.  I've been in all kinds of meeting places.  Some had airs of Christian hostility that thought being an atheist was a grave mistake, and there were others that accepted more diversity and didn't care about my beliefs.

It sounds like you have some options in your area.  Where I got into AA there was only one meeting in town, and it was mostly wacky fundamentalists that set the tone.  They were nice enough, but it was actually the most foreign feeling meeting I ever attended, and I was there for several years.  The last AA meeting I ever attended was much like the first, and I decided I couldn't take anymore of meetings that were heavily loaded with woo.  I was also secure enough with my own sobriety that I thought it would be a good time to cut the cord for good.  It's been seven years since my last meeting.

[Savior2006]

At a meeting today, the guy sitting next to me was clowning the very (let's say...verbally eloquent) lady speaking her mind about how much she liked the program.

She said something double entendre and the guy next to me (a fucking 60 some year old man I think) says "that's what she said."

He then says to me "just because you are sober doesn't mean you can't have fun."

[Gerard]

I said before that I absolutely wouldn't "come out," but we were on Step Six, which is about asking God to remove our flaws, and of course we had to have a discussion to that effect. I said in the nicest manner possible that completing many of the 12 steps would not be possible for me because I'm not spiritual. Instead I told them about how I would just do different things to get my mind off of drinking: reading, writing, playing video games, job hunting, etc,.

They seemed pretty open minded and even-toned. They said that the 12 were suggestions. They emphasized that, and that took me by surprise. In all the  previous meetings (in different locations of course) I didn't get the sense that the steps were only suggestions. I imagine people in AA will tell me differently one way or the other.

Anyways, I like this group a lot. Hopefully that positive feeling is not misplaced. They did suggest I read "We Agnostics" and I didn't have the heart to tell them that I thought that chapter sucked the root.

Well, that wasn't as bad as you thought it might be. Sometimes you're just caught in what turns out to be a prejudice I suppose. In this case anyway.

Gerard

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I went to the HokeyPokey meetings and managed to turn myself around. .and that's what it's all about. .

BAM! Dual hokeypokey references in one day. .

[SGOS]

He then says to me "just because you are sober doesn't mean you can't have fun."

One thing that surprised me about AA early on is what it was not.  It is not a bunch of white knuckled drunks wishing they could have a drink.  It's more like a celebration of sobriety.  There are downer discussions from time to time, but generally it focuses on positive opportunities that are inherent in sobriety.  That part means something to me.  From my experience, it also rings very true.

[Savior2006]

I went to the HokeyPokey meetings and managed to turn myself around. .and that's what it's all about. .

BAM! Dual hokeypokey references in one day. .

Once again, I'm really glad that the meetings were not mandatory for me like they were for you. At the Unitarian church, there was a guy who'd been court-ordered. He'd done a dry run of five months or something like that. But when I caught up to him yesterday I think he was back to only a few days. That sucks. =(

That same meeting, I got more of an impression that the 12 Steps is NOT suggestion--at least not for that particular group. They did urge that I find a higher power of my own (whatever it is).

One thing that surprised me about AA early on is what it was not.  It is not a bunch of white knuckled drunks wishing they could have a drink.  It's more like a celebration of sobriety.  There are downer discussions from time to time, but generally it focuses on positive opportunities that are inherent in sobriety.  That part means something to me.  From my experience, it also rings very true.

Yeah, I get what you mean. It is a positive experience overall. I'm still not at the point where I'm willing to get a sponsor because there IS that disconnect between me and them when it comes to spirituality. To me, I really don't consider it noticeably different from having a religion.

[SGOS]

That same meeting, I got more of an impression that the 12 Steps is NOT suggestion--at least not for that particular group. They did urge that I find a higher power of my own (whatever it is).

I've seen that too.  It's often obvious that they didn't have their heart in that statement.  It will become clearer if such statements are in earnest the longer you are there.  It seems rather important to me that you can decide for yourself if you want to take them as suggestions in your own personal situation, and you're going to do that anyway.  You will probably notice as you get farther a long, that a lot of members who talk about the importance of the 12 steps as rules often treat many of them as suggestions when it's convenient, anyway.

Hell, why not be your own higher power?  This could ruffle some feathers, but you don't have to announce it.  In the end, you are going to be responsible for your own recovery anyway.  You may stumble here and there, but people claiming to take their marching orders from a higher power stumble too.  You will notice that in time.

Yeah, I get what you mean. It is a positive experience overall. I'm still not at the point where I'm willing to get a sponsor because there IS that disconnect between me and them when it comes to spirituality. To me, I really don't consider it noticeably different from having a religion.

I eventually asked a guy to sponsor me.  He was a guy I could go to and talk in confidence with.  I thought he was the best available choice.  We became friends.  It's odd how people choose sponsors.  Some pick someone who has a history of falling off the wagon.  Some people pick people with questionable ethics.  Sometimes it seems like the blind leading the blind.  Some things have an air of comedy about them.

[SGOS]

Think about bending and twisting each of the steps into something meaningful that you can apply.  By all means take the god parts out, but look beyond the god part of a step and see if you can do something with it.  I did that.  I think it helped.  Sometimes I think it made them more meaningful to me than others who take them word for word.  I don't know that, but I did find some meaning in them after I removed or replaced the god parts.  Was it necessary?  I don't know.  It's what I did.  I got better, but I can't tell you if there was a cause and effect involved or not.  LOL

[Savior2006]

Think about bending and twisting each of the steps into something meaningful that you can apply.  By all means take the god parts out, but look beyond the god part of a step and see if you can do something with it.  I did that.  I think it helped.  Sometimes I think it made them more meaningful to me than others who take them word for word.  I don't know that, but I did find some meaning in them after I removed or replaced the god parts.  Was it necessary?  I don't know.  It's what I did.  I got better, but I can't tell you if there was a cause and effect involved or not.  LOL

I'm taking that advice to heart. In Step 2, I saw the advice where I am urged to "have faith" in AA and its people if nothing else. I was like "OK, that's perfectly fine."

Again, the book is not perfect. As with "We Agnostics," the chapter makes plenty of assumptions about non-believers--that for us "the gods" of "intellect" and "evolution" replaced the God of our fathers (which fathers? I imagine many of my ancestors believed in African tribal gods).

Still it isn't as bad as "We agnostics" which was royally fucked by this article.

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2009/05/24/we-agnostics-seven-deceptive-delusions/

[SGOS]

Still it isn't as bad as "We agnostics" which was royally fucked by this article.

http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2009/05/24/we-agnostics-seven-deceptive-delusions/

Words to seriously consider at the end of his summation:

We give up on ourselves when we submit to a higher power instead of looking into ourselves using our logic and rationality to get to the root of the problem. We have the power within ourselves, others and the real world to overcome alcoholism but this writer attempts to lead us to believe that we do not. The abandonment of logic and rationality is detrimental to the advancement of the human race.

[aitm]

Whatever format a group follows, its success is mostly due to like minded people against a common "enemy" or for a common goal. Churches are not successful because of anything to do with religion, they are successful because a group of people tell you that your beliefs are correct. That we are here for you and we are all in it together. Whats not to like about herd mentality? Positive reinforcement does wonders for one insecurities.

I am too damn stubborn and cantankerous to even accept a suggestion about behavior. Like many, I have had my downs, and may have more, but I have been through enough that unless its death itself, I'll take a swing at it.

But bully for anyone that recognizes, acknowledges or just wants to get some extra help.  Can't hurt unless its from Hare fuckin Krisnas...LOLOLOL

[SGOS]

Whatever format a group follows, its success is mostly due to like minded people against a common "enemy" or for a common goal.

But in the case of religions and AA, the greater success is in the enduring longevity of the organization itself.  The actual success in helping people isn't usually measured, but rather, it's just assumed.  Attempts at measuring individual successes in AA come up with a figure around 5%, but it varies depending on the source, and that rate isn't any different than for people who quit on their own.  Not to say AA won't accomplish the goal where other attempts fail.  Some people just need the support of a group, at least to get over the hump.  Other's don't need it.

If you sit in AA meetings for a while, it's easy to start to see it as an end all be all of recovery, but what you won't be aware of at first is that you are looking at a biased sampling composed of 20 to 30 who have stopped drinking, and 7 to 10 members who keep falling off the wagon.  That 70% of the successful members looks great, but you're only looking at a sample of maybe 20 to 30 people.  You're not taking into account the hundreds of those who wanted to stop, came to the group in question and failed, and never showed up again.

This poor recovery rate is washed away by the often repeated claim in AA that those who fail to come to meetings will drink again.  The other side of that coin, the side which I believe is more accurate, is that those who drink again, don't come back to meetings.  Those who AA can't help, or those that just can't seem to stop, aren't likely to show up at meetings.

[Savior2006]

But in the case of religions and AA, the greater success is in the enduring longevity of the organization itself.  The actual success in helping people isn't usually measured, but rather, it's just assumed.  Attempts at measuring individual successes in AA come up with a figure around 5%, but it varies depending on the source, and that rate isn't any different than for people who quit on their own.  Not to say AA won't accomplish the goal where other attempts fail.  Some people just need the support of a group, at least to get over the hump.  Other's don't need it.

If you sit in AA meetings for a while, it's easy to start to see it as an end all be all of recovery, but what you won't be aware of at first is that you are looking at a biased sampling composed of 20 to 30 who have stopped drinking, and 7 to 10 members who keep falling off the wagon.  That 70% of the successful members looks great, but you're only looking at a sample of maybe 20 to 30 people.  You're not taking into account the hundreds of those who wanted to stop, came to the group in question and failed, and never showed up again.

This poor recovery rate is washed away by the often repeated claim in AA that those who fail to come to meetings will drink again.  The other side of that coin, the side which I believe is more accurate, is that those who drink again, don't come back to meetings.  Those who AA can't help, or those that just can't seem to stop, aren't likely to show up at meetings.

I'll keep that in mind.

I'm probably not going to get a sponsor. I simply don't know if any of them will click with me.

[Savior2006]

I've gone over 60 days now. I've been paying attention to some of the steps about making amends for past wrongs. That part of the program is indeed something that sticks with me.

Of course, when you hit milestones like this, however small, the person heading the meeting asks "You wanna tell people how you did it?" And I give them my same spiel about keeping busy: reading, writing, etc,.