AA Meetings

[Savior2006]

Yeah, I've been going lately at the suggestion of one of my head doctors. The experience has been MOSTLY good, and I think many of you are already know where I'm going with this.

It's nice to be able to talk to a community that's focused on staying sober. All the same, the religious...or "spiritual" aspect is already wearing a thin, and I've only been to my fourth meeting. When people talk about it, I'm like okay whatever. So at the fourth meeting, while people were talking about God and the spirit, I paid no attention and instead flipped to the chapter of the AA book entitled "We Agnostics."

I'm thinking "okay great, we'll get a non-religious point of view." And that's exactly what I didn't get. What I got was essentially a criticism of the non-religious. How we are vain because we think human intelligence is the "Alpha and the Omega" (which of course isn't true). How it simply isn't possible to stay sober without believing in God. About how we are using faith just as much when we voice our approval of science and logic, rather than religious bullshit when it comes to solving problems or thinking a certain way about something.

The crack about us being vain honestly didn't sit well with me.

I wanted to be a part of this community, but I'm not really sure if it's for me.

At the end, there's some analogy about a non-religious person who becomes religious after he thinks to himself "Who are you to say there's no God?"

Excuse me? Who the fuck are you to say there IS a God? Who are you to say there's just one God? That he's male rather than female? That "He" has personality traits X, Y, and Z? That "He" made the universe specifically to put humans on ONE planet, specifically so that they could be "His" servants?

When my head doctor was talking to me about it, I was thinking that "it wouldn't be a big deal." Shit, was I wrong.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I did the AA thing till I had more than one blow up including one with a judge about the separation of church and state  which landed me right back in the slammer for a week to think about it..So I said fine, whatever..I'll go..Keep in mind my AA fun was court mandated so my choice was AA or jail so I went for awhile.. I raised quite a ruckus at the meetings about being an atheist and was told my "higher power" could be anything..why, it could be an ORANGE!  Imagine that!  An orange rotting away on the shelf could be my higher power! Can't get much easier than an orange..
Of course I know that was 100% pure prime bullshit so I explored ways to go to meetings without going to meetings.. FORGERY! I forged the court papers and quit drinking on my own by becoming a heroin addict..I got off heroin by going to a methadone clinic for almost 10 years,  got clean and started drinking again, but just recently decided I can live without the booze and I will..   
Just for the record I don't advise heroin to stop drinking.. It just makes alcohol taste really nasty to me.. Personal taste may vary from individual to individual..

[SGOS]

Well now.  It didn't take you long to figure it out, did it.  You really did capture the essence of AA in a nutshell.  Yes, it's helpful.  If you can surround yourself with people who really do cherish sobriety, yours included, it is a useful support group.  They understand what you are going through, and are more helpful than well meaning friends who often don't understand the problem.

They also cherish your salvation.  Every AA group has a religious aspect to it (It was founded on so called "spiritual" principles).  Some groups are fundamentalist in nature, and most all groups push the idea of an intervening personal god, that saves you from your addiction, which strikes me as fundamentalist.

The chapter we agnostics is particularly offensive to atheists since their is no "we" about it.  The chapter was written by a theist, who had always been a theist, and writes from the theist's bias with no understanding of agnosticism, but still claims to have been an agnostic.  Not that he would necessarily need any agnostic credentials to write about agnosticism, but he is without a clue what he's actually talking about.  Claiming agnosticism is just a way to compensate for his lack of knowledge.

And then he talks about science (I think it's in that chapter).  Ah yeah.  Hit em with some science to back up your defense of God.  I particularly like the part about protons and electrons acting like they have a mind of their own.  But don't stop there, there's enough unfounded rubbish throughout the entire book to give you a chance to apply your critical reading skills at great length.

But the support group aspect was valuable for me, probably necessary actually.  I was in AA for a number of years, much longer than I needed to be.  One day some woman wanted to start a discussion about how God talks to each of us.  I'd heard discussions like this so many times, but that night I decided I wasn't going to another AA meeting. 

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Wasn't there a statistic awhile back showing that AA had about the same success rate as just going cold turkey? I remember Penn and Teller dedicating an episode of "Bullshit!" to the topic where they cited something to that effect.

[SGOS]

Yes, I've heard a range of statistics on recovery and the various programs.  I've even heard one old timer point out that most recovering alcoholics that have been sober for 5 years just do it on their own.  Most AA members believe AA has a higher recovery rate than anything else, but it's not supported with data.  It's just kind of an intoxicated joyful belief born of exuberance.  Actual chances for recovery for all alcoholics are what I would call dismal.  I've heard numbers as low as 5% to as high as 15% no matter if it's AA or anything else.  Most AA members like to point out that even if it's unscientific, it's worth it if it works for some people.  I can't argue against that.

[TomFoolery]

If AA has been helpful to you in other ways, just treat it like a salad bar and take what's good like artichokes and community support and leave the stuff you can't stand, like chick peas and Jesus.

[Gerard]

If AA has been helpful to you in other ways, just treat it like a salad bar and take what's good like artichokes and community support and leave the stuff you can't stand, like chick peas and Jesus.

But I love chick peas! (and beer).

Gerard

[Mike Cl]

But I love chick peas! (and beer).

Gerard

A little hummus anyone??

[Gerard]

A little hummus anyone??

Hummy Yummy!

[Savior2006]

If AA has been helpful to you in other ways, just treat it like a salad bar and take what's good like artichokes and community support and leave the stuff you can't stand, like chick peas and Jesus.

I guess. It's just difficult when it seems to be in nearly every paragraph, from the 12 steps, to the serenity prayer, to just random shit. I really didn't think it would be as pervasive as it was. I'll talk about it with my head doctor later,  I guess. I really didn't like that bullshit We Agnostics chapter.

[SGOS]

I guess. It's just difficult when it seems to be in nearly every paragraph, from the 12 steps, to the serenity prayer, to just random shit. I really didn't think it would be as pervasive as it was. I'll talk about it with my head doctor later,  I guess. I really didn't like that bullshit We Agnostics chapter.

The annoyance factor is very high, because the God stuff is so very very pervasive.  Taking the useful stuff and leaving the crap is much easier to talk about than to do.  And like Christianity, AA members pile their favorite additional silly memes on top of the book, and they're going to be in your face about it.  Not all of them, but no group I've been in has been without it's evangelicals.

What I did was just twist and bend and rethink everything and make it a secular exercise in my mind.  The twelve steps have some value, with or without the God stuff, and I molded those things into non God exercises (sometimes with astonishing twisting and bending) to the extent that it would make a evangelical AA person scream.  Some of the book, I just rejected out of hand, but I did think about everything in the program, and try to figure out ways to make it secular, before I shit canned it.

But I know what you're going through, and I can even predict what still lies ahead.  On the positive side of the coin is that it does represent one path to sobriety, and I can't tell you how much I enjoy not drinking, not having hangovers, being clear headed, and most of all, not being controlled by a foreign substance in my body.  It's a wonderful thing.  At first I was euphoric about it for a year or two.  Now it's just a normal part of who I am, and that person I was 20 years ago is like somebody I knew once, but in no way resembles who I am now.

If there is another path, take it, but if you don't find any other way, give AA a fair shot, and by fair, I don't mean you have to try or pretend to believe the bullshit.  Eventually, you can go  on autopilot when it seems right.  I lasted much past that point, and I made one very good friend in the program.  I could usually find enough good things in the members, that the fellowship had some rewards to compensate for the stupid stuff.  I would even say the Lord's Prayer with everyone else, just to smooth relationships.  But I used to laugh at myself doing it.

And definitely talk to your head doctor.  You will know pretty quickly if he actually understands the special endurance it requires for an atheist.  If he doesn't understand it, it won't be the first person who doesn't get it. But there are people who will.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I think you'd have just as much success with quitting drinking if you drop a 500 pound anvil on your foot so you can't walk to the bar as you would going to AA meetings...I got zilch from it and in fact drank more than ever in AA..
Sitting around with other drunks talking about drinking is like going to a titty bar to swear off looking at naked women.. 

[aitm]

By definition I am probably an alchy, but  I enjoy my booze and I only drink when I fucking want to which is pretty much most the time so I am in charge of that see? I quit ciggies with remarkable ease after 20 years but of course that was because I wanted to. I enjoy my booze, I don't drink and drive..well I do, but its not sitting in a bar for seven hours its more of the one hour happy happy bull shit where I  have a four and go home kinda thing, or on a Saturday where I get up at 6:30 pick up dog shit, weed whack, mow the lawn, clean the pool, work in the yard general BS, clean the truck, yada yada, and by 10:00 I already done more shit that you did so….plop plop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is….

yeah…..I know guys that have had 12 beers before 7 in the morning, know guys that can drink 24 in a half day without even showing a touch of bouncy shit. Alcoholism is one of those subjective bullshit things. They try to lay down a hard and fine line that this is or this is not, but it is not that simple. The percentage  that is established by law as "drunk" is nonsense. But, a line has to be set and I suppose that is about as  good as one can do.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I've pretty much gotten to the point where I can take it or leave it. I enjoy drinking, but my liver doesn't and after finding a woman I want to spend a long time with I don't want to be doing it from a hospital bed so I decided to put the drinking on hold at least until I go through hep c treatment which means no drinking for a minimum of six months plus the wait to get in the program.. Yeah, she's worth it..

[Savior2006]

And definitely talk to your head doctor.  You will know pretty quickly if he actually understands the special endurance it requires for an atheist.  If he doesn't understand it, it won't be the first person who doesn't get it. But there are people who will.

He brought up the issue with religion in AA even as he suggested it. He told me it wasn't the be all/end all solution for everyone for that reason, but he did ask me to at least try it and let him know what I thought.

I'm really glad it was a voluntary  matter, and not a court-ordered one.  I have a feeling a good percentage of the members are here for that reason. A guy I was talking to today, sober for 5 months, was there on a court-order and asked me if I was as well. A guy from my second meeting asked me the same thing. My attitude would be a LOT worse if this was the case.