Religion where you live?

[Mike Cl]

Odoital, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to us?  Before we take pot-shots at you, or you at us, it's kind of nice to know a little about you and what you think. 

[Sal1981]

Mostly Charismatic denominations (2 or 3),  the Protestant Church and a few Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Feral Atheist]

Finally remembered to snap a picture.

Fuck, and this loon lives in my state.

In town, one of NC's liberal cities, there are the stray street preachers, and a few loons, but for the most part religion is pretty much not mentioned.

Get out into the rural areas of the county, and when you meet someone 90% of the time one of the first questions the ask is "where y'all go to church" 

[Feral Atheist]

I love it when a business proclaims they are christian.  I stay away.  Even if I have to go to another town to get whatever it is.  I have had my worse business experiences with christians.  I think they are inherently dishonest and immoral.

This goes back to some of the wisdom my daddy taught me. 

He told me "son, there's only one reason to go to church on Sunday.  That is to see who is sitting on the front pew, for that is that bastard that will try to screw you on Monday."

[Mike Cl]

This goes back to some of the wisdom my daddy taught me. 

He told me "son, there's only one reason to go to church on Sunday.  That is to see who is sitting on the front pew, for that is that bastard that will try to screw you on Monday."

I have never heard that piece of advice before.  You had a very wise daddy! :))  I'll have to borrow that one!

[Odoital778412]

Odoital, would you be so kind as to introduce yourself to us?  Before we take pot-shots at you, or you at us, it's kind of nice to know a little about you and what you think.

Sure I'm in my 30's, in law enforcement for the past 14 years, live in the Midwestern U.S., and have been a professing Christian for more than 3 decades & a thinking Christian for the past 16 or 17 years.

With regard to the rest, I don't intend to take pot-shots at anyone, and hopefully no one will take them at me.  Generally speaking, it's just not conducive to having a real conversation.

[Mike Cl]

Sure I'm in my 30's, in law enforcement for the past 14 years, live in the Midwestern U.S., and have been a professing Christian for more than 3 decades & a thinking Christian for the past 16 or 17 years.

With regard to the rest, I don't intend to take pot-shots at anyone, and hopefully no one will take them at me.  Generally speaking, it's just not conducive to having a real conversation.

I appreciate your sharing with us.  I like you last sentence.  I agree with that thought.  I would enjoy a conversation with you----but, to be honest, you will be in for some rough sledding on this site.  If you have read some of the threads here, I think you may realize that.  And to be honest, I thought would be a drive-by type theist.  Most of them who come here are.  And BTW, I was a juvenile hall school teacher for 35 years, and during that time (well, 10 yrs)  I was a member of a church, including being the board president for a year.  I did not consider myself a christian, and still don't, but I was in a more searching mode back then.  I'd love to have a conversation with a 'thinking' christian, one who will discuss different views of the bible and religion in general, without becoming angry or defensive. 

With that in mind, maybe we could start a discussion dealing with the thread I started called, 'The 10 Commandments for Johnny', where I point out that the 10 commandments are listed three times in the OT--twice in Ex and once in Deu.  The only one that is called 'the 10 commandments' is located in Ex. 34.  Why is that not used as 'The 10 Commandments'?  Why three places?  And why pick out only 10 commandments, statues, ordinances or laws, when there are 613 of them in the OT?  That's a lot to chew on.  I look forward to reading what you have to say. 

Oh, and welcome--I really do hope you stick around for awhile. 

[Odoital778412]

I appreciate your sharing with us.  I like you last sentence.  I agree with that thought.  I would enjoy a conversation with you----but, to be honest, you will be in for some rough sledding on this site.  If you have read some of the threads here, I think you may realize that.  And to be honest, I thought would be a drive-by type theist.  Most of them who come here are.  And BTW, I was a juvenile hall school teacher for 35 years, and during that time (well, 10 yrs)  I was a member of a church, including being the board president for a year.  I did not consider myself a christian, and still don't, but I was in a more searching mode back then.  I'd love to have a conversation with a 'thinking' christian, one who will discuss different views of the bible and religion in general, without becoming angry or defensive.

Yeah, I know about the tough sledding.  I've visited a lot of forums like this, so I've gotten plenty of experience.  Unfortunately, people like yourself are relatively rare.  Meaning no offense of course, but I find most atheists are hostile, condescending, and dismissive from the outset.  Taking the time to see it from their point of view, I can empathize, but I'm always hopeful and looking for people who can differ in a civilized fashion so that all parties can leave from each discussion having been made better by the experience.

You certainly have an interesting background.  I find it hard to imagine holding such positions in a church while not even considering myself a Christian, though I've heard of such things before.  Given my background though, it's a bit mind blowing to consider the concept.

With that in mind, maybe we could start a discussion dealing with the thread I started called, 'The 10 Commandments for Johnny', where I point out that the 10 commandments are listed three times in the OT--twice in Ex and once in Deu.  The only one that is called 'the 10 commandments' is located in Ex. 34.  Why is that not used as 'The 10 Commandments'?  Why three places?  And why pick out only 10 commandments, statues, ordinances or laws, when there are 613 of them in the OT?  That's a lot to chew on.  I look forward to reading what you have to say. 

Oh, and welcome--I really do hope you stick around for awhile.

I have to say that I'm a bit struck by the question itself.  Is this actually your most pressing concern?  I mean, if you had a question for a Christian, this is the one you'd choose?  There's obviously nothing wrong with the question at all.  I'm just a little surprised by its atypical nature.  Unfortunately, I don't know that I'll be able to give you a satisfactory answer, without looking into it a bit.  I can tell you that the laws you're talking about were part of the Mosaic covenant, which of course are not and have never been binding upon the gentiles or Christians.  Having said that, you're right to point out that they are called the Ten Commandments, and there is a sense in which those are and always have been binding.  That's because the laws you speak of can be broken up into three categories (moral, civil, and ceremonial).  The civil & ceremonial laws are those that were binding specifically on the Jews of the OT.  And those that, generally speaking, can be called the 10 Commandments are considered to be the moral laws.  That's because of the principles of morality that were included in the Law that are applicable to all people at all times in virtue of their reflection of God's nature and objective, universal morality. But they apply to all people in virtue of these moral principles and not because they were in the Mosaic Covenant.  There is a book by Thomas R. Schreiner called something like 40 Questions about Christians and the Biblical Law, which touches on some of these issues & might be helpful.  So the 10 Commandments are the only ones focused on by Christians due to the fact that they are the only ones that still apply under the New Covenant found in Christ.  However, they are less legalistic laws and more laws of the heart with the bar having been raised.  So that in the New Testament, even just hating someone is equated with the act of murder.  All acts are birthed in the imagination, and so Christians are admonished to take every thought captive in obedience to Christ.  As for the rest, I'd have to look into the issue a bit more.  Is there a reason behind your particular curiosity surrounding this issue?  As I recall from my school days, I believe there is also a book on the Ten Commandments in History by Paul Grimley Kuntz you might find interesting.  I consulted it for a paper I wrote years ago, and I don't believe it's a Christian treatment.  Anyway, I hope that answers at least part of your question.

[Mike Cl]

You certainly have an interesting background.  I find it hard to imagine holding such positions in a church while not even considering myself a Christian, though I've heard of such things before.  Given my background though, it's a bit mind blowing to consider the concept.

This was with a Unity Church.  Are you familiar with Unity?  If not, google it and look at it's concepts and I think you can see that a belief in god or jesus is not required to get benefit from thinking that way.  And as you are aware, the term "Christian" is not monolithic--it encompasses a huge range of beliefs, thoughts and actions.  And it did get a little 'mind blowing' for me, which is why I left.  I still use some of the concepts I learned then, such as affirmations and what the 'Christ consciousness' is within me.  I just don't define these terms as a christian would.

[Mike Cl]

I have to say that I'm a bit struck by the question itself.  Is this actually your most pressing concern?  I mean, if you had a question for a Christian, this is the one you'd choose?  There's obviously nothing wrong with the question at all.  I'm just a little surprised by its atypical nature. 

I look for any entryway into a decent conversation with any christian.  Johnny was talking about morals and this, I thought, would be a good way to approach a discussion about morals, for I head almost daily how that is the bedrock of our morals--the 10 commandments.  So it was just a device to try and get a discussion started.  And it worked.  Johnny and I have a discussion going on and I hope it continues.  I will admit that I was/am surprised that he did not blow off my questions and is actually engaging in a heartfelt and calm discussion.  I always appreciate that.

As for the first question I'd ask a christian--well, it differs from person to person.  For you, I was simply trying to see if you were a drive-by (quite clearly you are not--I think it is our gain that your old board shut down), so what would I ask?  We have a couple of discussions going on right now, so I don't know that we need to start one here.  But if you have any questions for me, fire away!

[Odoital778412]

This was with a Unity Church.  Are you familiar with Unity?  If not, google it and look at its concepts and I think you can see that a belief in god or jesus is not required to get benefit from thinking that way.  And as you are aware, the term "Christian" is not monolithic--it encompasses a huge range of beliefs, thoughts and actions.  And it did get a little 'mind blowing' for me, which is why I left.  I still use some of the concepts I learned then, such as affirmations and what the 'Christ consciousness' is within me.  I just don't define these terms as a christian would.

Well, that makes a lot more sense. Yes, I’m familiar with the Unitarian church.  From my own experience, most of the people who attend the Unitarian church wouldn’t be people that I could affirm as Christians.  And yes, in this context, you’re talking about a huge variety of belief, to the degree that it’s almost completely amorphous, at least in some cases.  It does depend a bit on the local demographics of course.  With regard to Christianity not being monolithic, I think I can agree.  However, I would have to insert a caveat here as well.  Though you can find almost anything, if you look hard enough, existing under the general moniker of Christian; the term has very little meaning unless it refers to something in particular.  For example, if I called every four-legged creature with hair a cat, what exactly would a cat be?  There would be no way to tell because my placing every four-legged creature under that moniker would have muddied the waters of definition and recognition.  This same thing is true of Christianity.  If you call everyone who decides to ascribe the term Christian to themselves a Christian, without any reference to what specifically they believe, then you might as well junk the term.  There won’t be enough definition there for you to tell a Christian from a Mormon, a Zoroastrian, a Jehovah’s witness, or even a Wiccan.  So you would need some basic definition that is broad enough to provide for the obvious variety that does exist, but is exclusive enough to refer mostly to those who genuinely believe what the Bible actually teaches about itself.  In short, a definition that would allow you to tell the orthodox from the heretic.  The variety would arise in the understanding of particular passages, one’s view of eschatology, views on the presence and use of gifts (i.e. tongues), etc…  There would be general agreement on the core doctrines or teachings and variety on secondary and tertiary matters.  I’ll just quickly give you a sketch of what those doctrines might be.  There might be some Christians who would argue for a few more basic doctrines, but these are the ones that every group of genuine Christians would insist upon.

1)   The authority of scripture
2)   The deity of Jesus Christ
3)   The sinfulness of man
4)   The substitutionary atonement
5)   Salvation by grace through faith (i.e. trust)

You can look back to a lot of the early creeds and find a lot of this.  But if a person fell out of the boat with regard to any of the 5 listed above, I wouldn't have good reason to affirm that person's claim to be a Christian.

I hope that all makes sense.

[Mike Cl]

Well, that makes a lot more sense. Yes, I’m familiar with the Unitarian church.  From my own experience, most of the people who attend the Unitarian church wouldn’t be people that I could affirm as Christians.  And yes, in this context, you’re talking about a huge variety of belief, to the degree that it’s almost completely amorphous, at least in some cases.  It does depend a bit on the local demographics of course.  With regard to Christianity not being monolithic, I think I can agree.  However, I would have to insert a caveat here as well.  Though you can find almost anything, if you look hard enough, existing under the general moniker of Christian; the term has very little meaning unless it refers to something in particular.  For example, if I called every four-legged creature with hair a cat, what exactly would a cat be?  There would be no way to tell because my placing every four-legged creature under that moniker would have muddied the waters of definition and recognition.  This same thing is true of Christianity.  If you call everyone who decides to ascribe the term Christian to themselves a Christian, without any reference to what specifically they believe, then you might as well junk the term.  There won’t be enough definition there for you to tell a Christian from a Mormon, a Zoroastrian, a Jehovah’s witness, or even a Wiccan.  So you would need some basic definition that is broad enough to provide for the obvious variety that does exist, but is exclusive enough to refer mostly to those who genuinely believe what the Bible actually teaches about itself.  In short, a definition that would allow you to tell the orthodox from the heretic.  The variety would arise in the understanding of particular passages, one’s view of eschatology, views on the presence and use of gifts (i.e. tongues), etc…  There would be general agreement on the core doctrines or teachings and variety on secondary and tertiary matters.  I’ll just quickly give you a sketch of what those doctrines might be.  There might be some Christians who would argue for a few more basic doctrines, but these are the ones that every group of genuine Christians would insist upon.

1)   The authority of scripture
2)   The deity of Jesus Christ
3)   The sinfulness of man
4)   The substitutionary atonement
5)   Salvation by grace through faith (i.e. trust)

You can look back to a lot of the early creeds and find a lot of this.  But if a person fell out of the boat with regard to any of the 5 listed above, I wouldn't have good reason to affirm that person's claim to be a Christian.

I hope that all makes sense.

This is a common mistake.  I have no problem with the Unitarian movement.  But Unity is NOT Unitarian.  Google Unity or Charles Fillmore and you will immediately see the difference.
Thank you for supplying the list of 5 elements of Christianity that makes one a Christian.  I'll comment on that later.