Atheist VS Christian morality: Good is evil and vice versa

Started by Hydra009, May 14, 2015, 11:53:11 AM

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Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AMYou are not even trying and it is tiresome to have a discussion with someone playing dumb when its convenient.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yHDBHxAfI
Black lives matter, feminism is good, religion is bullshit, and if you disagree with me on any of these points you are a fucking moron.<br /><br />Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Baruch

KingJ ... If G-d ever did describe things from Her standpoint ... we wouldn't be able to recognize it or interpret it.  This is the put-down for every claimed revelation and scripture.  Humans can only recognize and interpret things that are human.  Once I understood that "transcendental inspiration" was a con ... it all fell into place.  You need to understand "immanence" and forget about "transcendence".  Nobody has ever raised themselves off the Earth by their pulling their own bootstraps.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
You are not even trying and it is tiresome to have a discussion with someone playing dumb when its convenient.

Rom 9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
How does this exhonorate God for his actions? Your own scripture cite actually speaks against your merciful God. God hardens the heart of whom he wants, basically making it impossible for them to repent even if they wanted to, unless it be by his pleasure.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Christianity 101 = It is not only Pharoahs heart that was hardened...it is EVERY sinner that goes to hell that has his heart hardened.
Reading comprehention 101 = When a subject-verb-object relationship is being expressed, the subject is causing the condition of the object.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
As I have AlReAdY said to you...the ReSt Of ThE bIbLe TeLlS uS wHo In FaCt WhO GoD cHoOsEs To HaRdEn AnD sOfTeN...the whomsoever will accept HIm = soften, reject Him = harden.
Your shifting case does not impress. There is no clear emphasis on points. It just makes you look like a retard.

Your screed does not dismiss the fact that the plain reading paints a nasty picture of God. The apologetic you're spouting now was developed over millennia of Christian thinkers poring over the bible, scrutinizing each word. The people who wrote this stuff didn't have the benefit of that thought, such as it is, so why did they keep those nasty passages in there?

Which brings us back to the point that I stated at the beginning: that the reason why this asshole of a god was regarded as a good character is because this is what was good character back in, assholishness and all. The guys who wrote the bible didn't need your apologetic, because this is what goodness meant back then.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
When judging God of the bible please try stick to the bible...
The hell I will. The bible was not written in a vaccuum and was not meant to be evaluated in a vaccuum. "God fearing" meant exactly that â€" you feared God. Loving god and being a good person are not a part of that. And I doubt your morality if you do anything deemed good out of mere fear.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
You are zooming in on the tooth of a big cuddly teddy bear. I sure hope you are not in law! Your trial of God is ridiculously biased and unfair.
Of course you would call such a trial unfair. That doesn't make the trial unfair.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
As I have already said. God wanted to make a proper example of Pharaoh for all those nations that would next meet the Jews.
Again admitting that "might makes right!" The only people who 'make examples of other people' this way are people with shakey moralities.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
God has been trying to reach Pharaoh from birth. As He does us all. God's MO is not to reach us with ''signs and wonders''. Like a rich man splashing his money and hoping for a faithful wife. If we see signs and wonders it is normally bad news for us.
And then what does God do when Pharaoh finally starts taking him seriously as a force to be reckoned with? He's all "Nah, just kidding!" and goes back to beating him down. Furthermore, because God acted this way, the Jews had to endure more life as slaves. Not only was it unfair to Pharaoh, it was unfair to the Jews!

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
I am not God to comment on this. But what I do know from looking at the rest of scripture is that God always protects and delivers those who turn to Him. I am sure that those who sided with the Jews were spared. We believe God of the universe is highly intelligent.
Belief and truth are two different things. By your own scripture, there was not one house that did not suffer from the curse of the firstborn. Not one. Everyone in Egypt suffered in some way. There are no reservations on this, and nothing in scripture justifies your apologetic that those who sided with the Jews were spared.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
. I am psycho because you are too lazy to look beyond your nose in your judgment of God...of the universe? Really?
You are a psycho, because you are unwilling to defend prima face morally repugnant acts by God. The bible was quite simply never meant to be read the way that you want me to read it.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Did you have any control over your birth? It is not evil for God of the universe who LOVES babies AND sinners Matt 5:44.....to take them to be with Him....He did make them after all.
Again, there is a great gulf between what is said about God, and what God actually seems to be doing, when he acts at all. Also, I notice all the passages you cite meant to gentle God are all books from the NT. Where are all the passages from the OT that shows God to be a great guy? That would provide a more convincing argument that this is meant to be a consistent message rather than a later whitewash.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
As for you and me, yes it is very evil for us to kill babies.
So why is it that Gpd gets a pass when he kills babies?

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Does it make sense to you that God give him warnings and make him unable to head them at the same time? Try and read with some lateral thought and context please.

It is either a case of:

1. Pharaoh was already ''long gone'' and God used the plague process to set a precedent on how He would deal with the evil.
2. Pharaoh was not long gone and God was earnestly trying to reach him with increasing in severity plagues. This agrees with the rest of scripture.
Only in your own mind. See, there's this principle in law: what the bold text promises, the fine print cannot take away. See, God takes credit for hardening Pharaoh's heart, and from before the fact. I cannot emphasize this enough. Either God was manipulating Pharaoh at the moment, or Pharaoh was always meant to be a sacrificial victim of God. That's the plain reading of the text. No amount of apologetic can dismiss that.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
1. So we don't have a working brain that grasps the need to isolate the evil?
2. So we assume a God who created all does not have a nice home?
3. Notice that your nose is nowhere near your behind.
Don't try to be clever, hoss. There is no physical, verifiable, empirical evidence that hell, heaven, or god exist at all. The only thing you have is a book. Every apologetic you spout ultimately derives from trying to read that book in a certain way. You can't squeeze blood from a stone, hoss.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
God has got nothing to prove to us.
Exodus puts lie to that. The story itself is a giant dick-wave by God, and you don't do that unless you think you do have something to prove. The fact that it's still there as a part of the canon means that there is something for him to prove. Your mealy-mouthed apologetic will not get you anywhere.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Believing in the miraculous does not cause a change of heart. James 1:27 = looking after widows and orphans is  religion undefiled.
Tell that to the firstborn of Egypt.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
The evidence points to Pharaoh being warned many times and him still defying God. A missinterpretable line of God hardening his heart just as Rom 9 can easily be missinterpreted. A common mistake by someone who has not read the rest of the bible (even OT) or someone looking to construe and not interested in a fair trial.
Again, the only one here misinterpreting things is you.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
God of the OT was actually very good. It is good to remove the wicked.
The bible was written by the winners. Of course they'd paint themselves as righteous and their opponents as wicked.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
What we notice is the manner in which He removed them was good. No brazen bulls. Just proper / quick deaths.
It took ten plagues for this drama to play out, and I don't know how you call a plague of boils or the famine following a plague of locusts a "proper/quick death."

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
We also notice that removing them was a last resort after many warnings Jonah 4:2.
God failed to remove the one person who was the lynchpin of Egypt's supposed slavery of the Hebrews: Paraoh himself. The officers and officials of Pharaoh's government were not going to let the Hebrews go without the Pharaoh's word of leave. The people at large were innocent of the slavery and hardly in a position of help, but if anything Pharaoh was more insulated from the first nine plagues than the populace. Of course, meanwhile the Jews are still suffering under the yoke of slavery while all this would be happening â€" slavery doesn't stop just because you're in a bad way; and if anything the demands on them would increase. And again, the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was quite plainy something that was done to Pharaoh by God.

Your bleating about Pharaoh was 'too far gone' indicates that God didn't see fit to intervene in the previous twenty to thirty years that it took Moses to grow up. Pharaoh would have been a much more receptive man back then, so where was his intervention?

What God did was not fair to Pharaoh, not fair to the Egyptians and not fair to the Jews that were his people. If god isn't evil, he's certainly a tremendous screw up.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Have you got anything else on Him from the OT?
The Flood comes to mind.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Spin? When you are in court I will hear your FULL story before I pass judgment.
We are not in court, and I think you have already passed judgement.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Are these real scholars the same ones that made terrible reading blunders recently on OT slavery?

Like quoting.... ''masters can beat slaves and go without punishment...God of the OT is EVIL personified''..... when a prior verse says the punishment they avoid is death and verses after say that if they beat a slave badly the slave is free.... :lipsrsealed:
No, any more than they and I think that the people who would keep slaves back then were 'EVIL personified.' Because slavery was hardly unusual at the time, and just about everyone passed laws on how to treat slaves. After all, they represented a fair amount of investment of time and energy. God's morality was indistinguishable from the people who worshiped him, but by modern standards would be way behind the times.

I'm talking about the experts in textual criticism who have pored over the bible and have discovered that the entire book is one of redactions and edits were actually fucking traceable from the language used. Basically, they know very well how the bible we know today came to be, and any notion that it contains any sort of literal or historical truth as we know it is simply childish.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
I simply read the bible unbiasedly.
:lol:

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Don't attend church often and don't agree with many Christians on many things. But one thing that is crystal clear is that your take on God of the bible is ridiculously biased and wrong.
If by "wrong," you mean I don't swallow everything it says uncritically, then guilty and proud.

Quote from: KingJ on July 23, 2015, 09:52:43 AM
Have you ever read the bible with an open mind?
Have you? "Open mind" doesn't mean what you think it means. "Open mind" means that new ideas get a chance to make their case, but I'm still allowed to be unrelentingly critical about what I read. "Open mind" means being open to the possiblity that the bible isn't a book inspired by god.

The bible isn't even really a good book, let alone one of spiritual truth. It certainly isn't a book of factual truth in the slightest. Again, if anything like the Exodus happened, Egypt and the other great empires of the time would have known about it, and the desert would still be bearing the scars of having a half-million people and their livestock treading across it in one big lump for forty years.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Baruch

Archeological evidence shows that the Exodus was a gradual trickle of Semitic escaped slaves and smugglers over many centuries ... there is no big encampment possible, and it wasn't where later scholarship thought it was (W of rift valley) but to the E in Midian (E of rift valley) basically around Petra ... which could only sustain a limited nomadic population (it is a severe desert).  Aaron's tomb is in Petra.  Philological analysis of the text of Exodus shows that it was composed after 1000 BCE, not before ... though the "Song of Miriam" could date earlier.  Basically a made up story, made up of bits of history and more made up stories.  Though the "Song of Miriam" could be an old Arab war song from before 800 BCE.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Solitary

QuoteIf you could reason with theists they wouldn't be theists. 

People defending God are not any different than those that defend ignorance is bliss, and authority is always right with God on their side. Idiots!
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

dtq123

This video came to mind when I read over these recent posts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyFM0_AhIYA
Seriously, KingJ worries me a bit. Insults are going to be mean soon, and Remilia does not approve.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

Baruch

Great animation ;-)  Wonder what the story was like before editing?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.