10 Commandments for JohnnyB

[Mike Cl]

Classic case of circular thinking going on there.

I would say circular at best--usually no thinking going on at all. 

[1liesalot]

True enough.

[Mr.Obvious]

Since nobody else is going to I guess I'm going to have to reply.
This is what Johnny had to say: "Sure, I'll take your challenge.  I believe the Ten Commandments to be laws revealed to mankind by God.  Since I believe God to be the objective source of morality in reality, then ny default these Commandments are morally good. "

So, for Johnny and billions of his fellow christians, this would constitute their moral foundation.  They are more morally bankrupt that I have at first imagined!

He finaly replies btw

[Mike Cl]

He finaly replies btw

Thanks, did not know that.  I must admit I am surprised.  I have now responded.

[Mike Cl]

Mike, which version is that in? I don't get that in the KJV.

Don't know if you found this in your KJV, but just in case here is what I lifted from the net.

Exodus Chapter 34

1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.

24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.


Note that verse 28 tells us this is the 10 Commandments. 

[JohnnyB1993]

In Exodus 34:27-28 Yahweh tells Moses to write down the commandments he just cited. The Bible says Moses wrote on the tablets (even though Yahweh said he was going to write on them) the words of the covenant then calls the covenant "The Ten Commandments."

The Ten Commandments (according to the Bible)

2.Do not worship any other god, for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god. Do not make treaties with those in other lands who worship other gods.

3.Do not make cast idols.

4.Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast during the first month of the Hebrew Year.

5.Sacrifice the first born of every womb, including all the firstborn males of your livestock. You can sacrifice a lamb in place of a firstborn donkey but if you do sacrifice the donkey break its neck. If your firstborn child is a boy sacrifice something else in its place. None shall appear before Yahweh without a sacrifice.

6.Do not work on the sabbath, even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

7.Celebrate the Jewish holiday "The Feast of Weeks" with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest and celebrate the Jewish holiday "The Feast of Ingathering" at the turn of the year. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the god of Israel and he will conquer surrounding nations before you enlarging your territory.

8.Do not mix blood sacrifices to Yahweh with yeast and do not let any sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

9.Bring the firstfruits of your land to the house of Yahweh, your god.

10.Do not cook a baby goat in his mother's milk.

Hi I am still here.  Sorry, due to my schedule it takes me a while to reply to comments.  The main thing I want to bring up is that I only read 9 different laws given here in Ex 34.  The first commandment you propose 'Obey the commandments' is not in the text.  In fact in a recent post of yours you give the KJV translation which says "Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite" (Ex 34:11).  Exodus 34:11 just shows how God wants the Israelites to observe the commandments He is giving that day, it is not an actual commandment itself.  So throughout Exodus 34 we have God re-writing the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20:1-17, (Ex 34:1) and then we have God telling Moses to write down these 'additional laws' (Ex 34:27). 

[Mike Cl]

Hi I am still here.  Sorry, due to my schedule it takes me a while to reply to comments.  The main thing I want to bring up is that I only read 9 different laws given here in Ex 34.  The first commandment you propose 'Obey the commandments' is not in the text.  In fact in a recent post of yours you give the KJV translation which says "Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite" (Ex 34:11).  Exodus 34:11 just shows how God wants the Israelites to observe the commandments He is giving that day, it is not an actual commandment itself.  So throughout Exodus 34 we have God re-writing the Ten Commandments from Exodus 20:1-17, (Ex 34:1) and then we have God telling Moses to write down these 'additional laws' (Ex 34:27).

If you read further, past the listing of the 10, you will find that they are called '10 Commandments'--that is the only place in the bible that has that label.  So, if god is re-writing these foundational laws of morality, why make three lists?  And which one is the actual list?  Is god making this up on the fly?  And why is he 'driving' out those 6 tribes?  Why not just snap them out of existence--that would be more merciful?  And since god called this list (sorry I left off one of them--they are not numbered in the bible; but I think you can figure out what it is) the 10 Commandments, do you follow them?

[stromboli]

I'm going to upgrade my analogy. Not tennis balls against a brick wall, but jello against a Teflon wall.

[JohnnyB1993]

If you read further, past the listing of the 10, you will find that they are called '10 Commandments'--that is the only place in the bible that has that label.  So, if god is re-writing these foundational laws of morality, why make three lists?  And which one is the actual list?  Is god making this up on the fly?  And why is he 'driving' out those 6 tribes?  Why not just snap them out of existence--that would be more merciful?  And since god called this list (sorry I left off one of them--they are not numbered in the bible; but I think you can figure out what it is) the 10 Commandments, do you follow them?

The list given in Ex 34 is known as the 'Ritual Decalogue'.  It would seem that this set of laws is given in parrallel to the 'Ethical Decalogue' described in Ex 20 and Deut 5.  Now the word 'decalogue' means commandments, yet I still have not been able to get past identifying 9.  However, you do not need to correct me (unless you really want to) for I will take your word for it that there are ten commandments described in Ex 34.  Context is now key in understanding the difference between the 'Ritual Decalogue' (Ex 34) and the 'Ethical Decalogue' (Ex 20, Deut 5).  The narrative of Ex 34 is set as a renewal of the covenant following the golden calf incident.   After all, right after God said 'you shall only worship me', Moses comes to find the Israelites already worshipping a statue of a golden calf.  The Ritual Decalogue is thus an addition to the Ethical Decalogue that God wants the Israelites to follow so that they may strive to refrain from idolatrous behaviour.

Further Explanations:
Ex 34:1  - God says that He will re-write the Ethical Decalogue since Moses had broken the original tablets (from Ex 32:19)
Ex 34:27 - God tells Moses to write down the Ritual Decalogue.
So the author is trying to inform us that God re-wrote the Ethical Decalogue and that Moses wrote the Ritual Decalogue.  Some have argued that the verse "And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments" (Ex 34:28) is actually in reference to God re-writing the Ethical Decalogue, not Moses.  I am not going to further argue that the subject in this verse is actually God rather than Moses since Deuteronomy tells us that God did re-write the Ethical Decalogue and gave them to Moses (Deut 10:1-6, which describes the Ethical Decalogue as the 'Ten Commandments). 
* Point being, as a Christian, I see no need to follow the Ritual Decalogue today since I believe Christ had fulfilled all the sacrificial and ritual laws of the OT upon his death on the cross.  The Ethical Decalogue, not being ritual laws, remain today as a moral compass that one should try and follow if they actually beileve in God.

Ex 20 versus Deut 5 Commandments:
The wording between the two lists here is very similiar.  Both lists have the same concepts too and are given in the same order.  Therefore, I am unsure where you question the comparison of Commandments from Ex 20 and Deut 5.  I do not think it will help but I will explain the context for Deut 5.  The Ten Commandments spoken in Deut 5 were being addressed to a different set of people.  The Israelites who were actually enslaved in Egypt were witness to the Commandments explained in Ex 20.  The context of Deut 5 is at a time where the majority of Israelites are now those who were born after the Exodus from Egypt.  Since the Ethical Decalogue still applied to them, then it seems that Moses wanted to re-iterate what the laws were.

Overall, I do not see three separate commandment lists throughout Exodus and Deuteronomy.  It is possible to reason that the 'Ten Commandments' spoken of in Ex 34:28 refers to the Ethical Decalogue of Ex 20 and not the Ritual Decalogue.  And then the Commandments listed in Deut 5 were repeated for a new generation of Israelites.  Therefore, I see no need to question on what the Ten Commandments really were in the OT.   Oh also, Im holding back on your question on 'why God is driving out the 6 tribes'. Only reason is that I may have written too much here and you may want to argue back against what I just wrote.  If you really want me to address it, then I will the next time around. 

[PickelledEggs]

Who the hell is JohnnyB1993?

[1liesalot]

Don't know if you found this in your KJV, but just in case here is what I lifted from the net.

Exodus Chapter 34

1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.

11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.

19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.

24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.

32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.

33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.


Note that verse 28 tells us this is the 10 Commandments.

Why the fuck is God long-suffering?

[aitm]

Why the fuck is God long-suffering?

well, he has been in "existence" forever and since he knew the very first day of his forever existence that he would be so fucking incompetent at humans that he has been suffering forever at how badly he fucked it up……got it?

[Mike Cl]

The list given in Ex 34 is known as the 'Ritual Decalogue'.  It would seem that this set of laws is given in parrallel to the 'Ethical Decalogue' described in Ex 20 and Deut 5.  Now the word 'decalogue' means commandments, yet I still have not been able to get past identifying 9.  However, you do not need to correct me (unless you really want to) for I will take your word for it that there are ten commandments described in Ex 34.  Context is now key in understanding the difference between the 'Ritual Decalogue' (Ex 34) and the 'Ethical Decalogue' (Ex 20, Deut 5).  The narrative of Ex 34 is set as a renewal of the covenant following the golden calf incident.   After all, right after God said 'you shall only worship me', Moses comes to find the Israelites already worshipping a statue of a golden calf.  The Ritual Decalogue is thus an addition to the Ethical Decalogue that God wants the Israelites to follow so that they may strive to refrain from idolatrous behaviour.

Further Explanations:
Ex 34:1  - God says that He will re-write the Ethical Decalogue since Moses had broken the original tablets (from Ex 32:19)
Ex 34:27 - God tells Moses to write down the Ritual Decalogue.
So the author is trying to inform us that God re-wrote the Ethical Decalogue and that Moses wrote the Ritual Decalogue.  Some have argued that the verse "And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments" (Ex 34:28) is actually in reference to God re-writing the Ethical Decalogue, not Moses.  I am not going to further argue that the subject in this verse is actually God rather than Moses since Deuteronomy tells us that God did re-write the Ethical Decalogue and gave them to Moses (Deut 10:1-6, which describes the Ethical Decalogue as the 'Ten Commandments). 
* Point being, as a Christian, I see no need to follow the Ritual Decalogue today since I believe Christ had fulfilled all the sacrificial and ritual laws of the OT upon his death on the cross.  The Ethical Decalogue, not being ritual laws, remain today as a moral compass that one should try and follow if they actually beileve in God.

Ex 20 versus Deut 5 Commandments:
The wording between the two lists here is very similiar.  Both lists have the same concepts too and are given in the same order.  Therefore, I am unsure where you question the comparison of Commandments from Ex 20 and Deut 5.  I do not think it will help but I will explain the context for Deut 5.  The Ten Commandments spoken in Deut 5 were being addressed to a different set of people.  The Israelites who were actually enslaved in Egypt were witness to the Commandments explained in Ex 20.  The context of Deut 5 is at a time where the majority of Israelites are now those who were born after the Exodus from Egypt.  Since the Ethical Decalogue still applied to them, then it seems that Moses wanted to re-iterate what the laws were.

Overall, I do not see three separate commandment lists throughout Exodus and Deuteronomy.  It is possible to reason that the 'Ten Commandments' spoken of in Ex 34:28 refers to the Ethical Decalogue of Ex 20 and not the Ritual Decalogue.  And then the Commandments listed in Deut 5 were repeated for a new generation of Israelites.  Therefore, I see no need to question on what the Ten Commandments really were in the OT.   Oh also, Im holding back on your question on 'why God is driving out the 6 tribes'. Only reason is that I may have written too much here and you may want to argue back against what I just wrote.  If you really want me to address it, then I will the next time around.

I'll repost the 10 commandments for you:

The Ten Commandments (according to the Bible)

1.Obey the commandments. Yahweh will conquer the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, and cut down their Asherah poles.

2.Do not worship any other god, for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god. Do not make treaties with those in other lands who worship other gods.

3.Do not make cast idols.

4.Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast during the first month of the Hebrew Year.

5.Sacrifice the first born of every womb, including all the firstborn males of your livestock. You can sacrifice a lamb in place of a firstborn donkey but if you do sacrifice the donkey break its neck. If your firstborn child is a boy sacrifice something else in its place. None shall appear before Yahweh without a sacrifice.

6.Do not work on the sabbath, even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

7.Celebrate the Jewish holiday "The Feast of Weeks" with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest and celebrate the Jewish holiday "The Feast of Ingathering" at the turn of the year. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the god of Israel and he will conquer surrounding nations before you enlarging your territory.

8.Do not mix blood sacrifices to Yahweh with yeast and do not let any sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

9.Bring the firstfruits of your land to the house of Yahweh, your god.

10.Do not cook a baby goat in his mother's milk.

The name "The Ten Commandments" is only used once in the Bible and it is used for the covenant listed in Exodus 34:10-2 and according to Exodus it is this set of commandments which are on the stone tablets within the Arc of the Covenant. However, the book of Deuteronomy which was written after the book of Exodus tells us that a different list of commandments are written on the stone tablets. Deuteronomy 5:6-21 lists the more commonly known commandments as being written on the stone tablets despite what Exodus clearly tells us.


So, the above is called the ritual decalogue and the other two are the ethical decalogue.  I don't find either of those two labels in the bible.  Where do you find them?  And why would god have one set  so different than the other two?  If god is perfect, then he seems to have an odd way of structuring His Word.  Not only odd, but quite imperfect.  I think it is fairly clear that the three were penned by three different authors--none of which are known. 

You say: "* Point being, as a Christian, I see no need to follow the Ritual Decalogue today since I believe Christ had fulfilled all the sacrificial and ritual laws of the OT upon his death on the cross.  The Ethical Decalogue, not being ritual laws, remain today as a moral compass that one should try and follow if they actually beileve in God. "
     Really?  Why do you say that.  Jesus quite clearly indicated in these verses:
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” â€" Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

Jesus tells us that the OT Law is not null and void, but very much alive.  So, I still say that the only place in the bible that is labeled as the 10 commandments is in Ex 34.  And it should, according to Jesus be treated as such. 

And as a brief side note, decalogue is Greek for 'ten words'.  Also note that nowhere in the bible are any of the commandments numbered by god--so who numbered the commandments? 
Oh, and thanks for your reply.

[JohnnyB1993]

I'll repost the 10 commandments for you:

The Ten Commandments (according to the Bible)

1.Obey the commandments. Yahweh will conquer the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, and cut down their Asherah poles.

I already made the comment here that for God to say 'I want you to obey these commandments' is not really a commandment in and of itself.  I think in an earlier post you said " (sorry I left off one of them--they are not numbered in the bible; but I think you can figure out what it is) ".  The one commandment that you left off, which one was it then?  Because the list of ten you just wrote is the same that you have written in past descriptions.

The name "The Ten Commandments" is only used once in the Bible

Deuteronomy 10:4 shows Moses explaining how God re-wrote the 'Ten Commandments' on the new tablets just like how He wrote them the former time.  Also Jesus refers to the Ethical Decalogue as the 'commandments' in Matthew 19:17-20. Now I could still be wrong, but I think the term  'Ten Commandments' is used at least twice in the Bible, but the example in Matthew 19 shows that Jesus clearly thought of the commandments as consisting of the Ethical, not Ritual Decalogue.

So, the above is called the ritual decalogue and the other two are the ethical decalogue.  I don't find either of those two labels in the bible.  Where do you find them?  And why would god have one set  so different than the other two?  If god is perfect, then he seems to have an odd way of structuring His Word.  Not only odd, but quite imperfect. 

The terms 'ritual decalogue' and 'ethical decalogue' are just words used to describe the two different set of laws we read in the Bible.  The word 'Bible' never appears in the Bible as well, its just a word we use to give a name to the book.  Same idea of labelling goes with these two different laws. 

Really?  Why do you say that.  Jesus quite clearly indicated in these verses:
“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” â€" Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

I was going to use Matthew 5:17, but you beat me to it!  Jesus says in Matthew 5:18-19 not an iota or dot will pass away until all of the law is accomplished.  Jesus then affirms that He will be responsible for accomplishing the law (Matthew 5:17 "I have come not to abolish but to fulfill").  The majority of OT laws (exception for the Ethical Decalogue) are ritual laws.  They involve sacrifices and various other rituals (see Ritual Decalogue).  This is what Jesus meant when he came to 'fulfill' the law.  Jesus perfectly followed all the OT laws in His life, yet died on the cross as if He broke them (punishment for sin is death).  So the point is, Jesus death is believed by Christians to be a sacrifice to end all sacrifices.  Christians no longer need to do the rather strange sacrifices and rituals in the OT because Jesus fulfilled them in His life and death on earth.  So when a Christian is saved through faith in Christ alone, he or she may want to try and live by the 'new covenant law' Jesus establishes in Mark 14:24, Matthew 26:28, Luke 22:20.

And as a brief side note, decalogue is Greek for 'ten words'.  Also note that nowhere in the bible are any of the commandments numbered by god--so who numbered the commandments?
Oh, and thanks for your reply.

Sorry about that , I was referring to the Greek origin of the word, 'déka lógoi', which could mean ten terms or ten commandments.   The translation to Hebrew 'aseret ha-dvarîm' should mean 'ten words' or 'ten items'. Furthermore,  I guess God numbered the commandments.  I mean, the ten commandments (referring to the Ex 20 ones of course) are numbered in the order that God gives them to Moses.  So I do not see an issue here.

[Givemeareason]

I already made the comment here that for God to say 'I want you to obey these commandments' is not really a commandment in and of itself.  I think in an earlier post you said " (sorry I left off one of them--they are not numbered in the bible; but I think you can figure out what it is) ".  The one commandment that you left off, which one was it then?  Because the list of ten you just wrote is the same that you have written in past descriptions.


Deuteronomy 10:4 shows Moses explaining how God re-wrote the 'Ten Commandments' on the new tablets just like how He wrote them the former time.  Also Jesus refers to the Ethical Decalogue as the 'commandments' in Matthew 19:17-20. Now I could still be wrong, but I think the term  'Ten Commandments' is used at least twice in the Bible, but the example in Matthew 19 shows that Jesus clearly thought of the commandments as consisting of the Ethical, not Ritual Decalogue.


The terms 'ritual decalogue' and 'ethical decalogue' are just words used to describe the two different set of laws we read in the Bible.  The word 'Bible' never appears in the Bible as well, its just a word we use to give a name to the book.  Same idea of labelling goes with these two different laws. 



I was going to use Matthew 5:17, but you beat me to it!  Jesus says in Matthew 5:18-19 not an iota or dot will pass away until all of the law is accomplished.  Jesus then affirms that He will be responsible for accomplishing the law (Matthew 5:17 "I have come not to abolish but to fulfill").  The majority of OT laws (exception for the Ethical Decalogue) are ritual laws.  They involve sacrifices and various other rituals (see Ritual Decalogue).  This is what Jesus meant when he came to 'fulfill' the law.  Jesus perfectly followed all the OT laws in His life, yet died on the cross as if He broke them (punishment for sin is death).  So the point is, Jesus death is believed by Christians to be a sacrifice to end all sacrifices.  Christians no longer need to do the rather strange sacrifices and rituals in the OT because Jesus fulfilled them in His life and death on earth.  So when a Christian is saved through faith in Christ alone, he or she may want to try and live by the 'new covenant law' Jesus establishes in Mark 14:24, Matthew 26:28, Luke 22:20.
Sorry about that , I was referring to the Greek origin of the word, 'déka lógoi', which could mean ten terms or ten commandments.   The translation to Hebrew 'aseret ha-dvarîm' should mean 'ten words' or 'ten items'. Furthermore,  I guess God numbered the commandments.  I mean, the ten commandments (referring to the Ex 20 ones of course) are numbered in the order that God gives them to Moses.  So I do not see an issue here.

Clearly you are a very pleasant person to talk with.  But why would you bring a discussion like this to a group of athiests?