Terrorists open fire on "Draw Muhammed" event in Garland, TX

[Munch]

I was going to say, but you beat me to it...if you don't think gays are killed or bullied into suicide in the U.S., you have to be willfully blind to what's going on.

Yes, of course they are. But trying to misdirect to the troubles gay people face in the west away from the gay men and women hanged and murdered in brutal execution for being gay in the more primitive middle eastern countries, it's the worst kind of fucking scapegoat.

[drunkenshoe]

Yes, of course they are. But trying to misdirect to the troubles gay people face in the west away from the gay men and women hanged and murdered in brutal execution for being gay in the more primitive middle eastern countries, it's the worst kind of fucking scapegoat.

And who is doing that? Are you aware what kind of a blame you are putting on there? Who are you to accuse me with disregarding people's lives based on where they live or what sexual orientation they have? I tried to explain that what people thought or believed don't make much difference when there is a strong state, economics and policies born from it. And it is a fucking fact. Not my personal invention.

See, this is why I keep saying there is a big problem with Western people's perception as well as their historical perspective. You insist on overlooking the most obvious mechanism that made West 'the West', basically the making and also the breaking of the world civilisations 101. You are the one looking for a scapegoat to point at for every place lacks that mechanism. Scapegoat after scapegoat to maintain the 'ideal status'. Story of the fucking 20th century. Suprise, it is a fucking lie. And the recent convenient one is a religion you learned that existed 10 years ago.

How old were you when 9/11 happened? Do you remember how these things were regarded before that around the world?

The saddest thing is that the scope of discussions among sceptics on these topics cannot go beyond People Magazine's comments on celebrity section. Haters, defenders and the occasional 'let's think about it for a second'. Because that's what it is. You -an many people around here- have the insight to the subject as much as you know about some celebrity's love life from a tabloid. That is the quality and the level of responsibility of the common Western media from NYC to edges of Europe.

[pr126]

Yes, of course they are. But trying to misdirect to the troubles gay people face in the west away from the gay men and women hanged and murdered in brutal execution for being gay in the more primitive middle eastern countries, it's the worst kind of fucking scapegoat.

It is just a tu qouque. You see, Christians doing it too.
Disregarding the fact that over there is institutionalised by the state.
State execution versus unlawful murder.


Now. Back to the topic. What was this thread about again?

[drunkenshoe]

It is just a tu qouque. You see, Christians doing it too.
Disregarding the fact that over there is institutionalised by the state.
State execution versus unlawful murder.

Now. Back to the topic. What was this thread about again?

And that's the summary of your understanding in a nutshell. Because you literally have no idea what we are talking about.

[Cocoa Beware]

I don't think you get what I mean.

You have this tendency  to think -like almost all Westerners- that muslims are -esp. women- live like hostages in that culture, because they don't live like you do. Believe or not, most of them are happy. I see this every day. Most of those women -including the educated ones, the ones who knows the West- don't see much of it as being disrespectful to themselves, but natural way of things. It's their culture. They are the only people who can change it. In anthropological norms; in scientific terms; there is no such thing as a 'bad culture'. You people read extreme events in your media -as they are all given by the muslim did it- for over a decade now, and think that it's a norm. It is not. When a christian man commits a violent crime, be it at home or out, he is just mentally ill. When a muslim man does it, he does it because he is a muslim. Do you understand, how fucked up is that?

I believe the more pertinent question is if a Muslim woman is unhappy with her religion, is she free to express it?

I suppose this goes for men as well. Its difficult even for Muslims who reside in Europe to do this. Unfortunately an adherent has specific constraints as to what they can or cannot speak frankly about, and understandably so given the consequences.

Ive always felt that the testimony of ex Muslims are what we should really be listening to. These are the people who risk much to get their message across, and they believe reform is possible.

You guys keep saying that they are executing gays. Yes, it is horrible. However, that is not different from people claiming how gay people should be killed in your country. They are not nutjobs. they are normal people with family and children, holding normal jobs, living normal lives. They are christians. They think gay people having the same legal rights with them will reduce their class to nothing. They see it as a threat. They really believe in that. Also because the difference is something constantly observable. Religious people are like that. They are simple minded. They can't stand anything different than themselves. That's why religion is created for one stereotype, that's why religion goes hand in hand with racism, fascism, nationalism. Entitlement. In the USA, now the gay marriage is gaining distance, these morons think their 'entitlement' -from birth- will be taken away. Among muslims same thing goes on but with a force of a main trait. Poverty. It's an anthropological principle that poverty is the best craddle for religion and bigotry. For people to 'wake up' and have desire to go forward you need common economic welfare. Education alone doesn't do jack squat.

A lot of things would go wrong in America if Christians had their wishes granted.

Its a work in progress and far from ideal, but we can do much to overturn their desires because we are allowed to express our objections, which I think is more to the point. We have the means to not only to call them out when they act like little bitches, but make it come full circle by ensuring they are the rightful focus of derision. I see religion more as something like that, ultimately having no place in dictating how our societies are run. America is the only modern nation that really clings to it.

For something like education you need to build the necessary infrastructure. Whatever changes that come are probably going to be gradual. It might take centuries.

[drunkenshoe]

I believe the more pertinent question is if a Muslim woman is unhappy with her religion, is she free to express it?

I suppose this goes for men as well. Its difficult even for Muslims who reside in Europe to do this. Unfortunately an adherent has specific constraints as to what they can or cannot speak frankly about, and understandably so given the consequences.

Ive always felt that the testimony of ex Muslims are what we should really be listening to. These are the people who risk much to get their message across, and they believe reform is possible.

Some couldn't even if they tried. Some choose not to when they can. Some don't care either way. They are just people. Like you. They choose the most convenient way to survive. They do not see their world as something horrible like all people on the planet have the tendency to do.

However, what you want to see is them doing these things in Western manners, so you can recognise and approve it. They won't do it like Westerners do, nor wish they could do it that way. Because they have a completely different understanding in regard of one's place in life and society. Gender roles and social norms. That's why the message doesn't reach them.

Becauase Westerners are not talking their 'language'. So anything that goes out from Western side, arrives like imposition, correction and condescenion -as mostly it is. Like the everyday reactions we give in the forum to the Christians who came here to corrrect us heathens. Why would anyone listen and follow someone who thinks he is inferior to him and needs to be corrected?

A lot of things would go wrong in America if Christians had their wishes granted.

That's a politically correct expression. It wouldn't be much different than the Middle East.

Its a work in progress and far from ideal, but we can do much to overturn their desires because we are allowed to express our objections, which I think is more to the point. We have the means to not only to call them out when they act like little bitches, but make it come full circle by ensuring they are the rightful focus of derision. I see religion more as something like that, ultimately having no place in dictating how our societies are run.

Americans talk about free speech and how much they have it, far more than they are practising it. Sometimes you can observe that advertisement of free speech substitutes for practising it.

For something like education you need to build the necessary infrastructure. Whatever changes that come are probably going to be gradual. It might take centuries.

They need consistent economic welfare. Everything is based on that.  Without that nothing happens.

Progress should be gradual. Nothing fast yields any real results.

[Cocoa Beware]

That's a politically correct expression. It wouldn't be much different than the Middle East.

This is quite true and cannot be stated enough.

Evangelists, McCarthyism, pious and "nukey" leaders. (I always thought Reagan never got near enough credit for just how crazy he was)

The Christians in America have been and will be problematic at best for the rest of us as long as they wield the political muscle.

They regard atheists in much the same way as they do homosexuals, if not worse.

[Mike Cl]

This is quite true and cannot be stated enough.

Evangelists, McCarthyism, pious and "nukey" leaders. (I always thought Reagan never got near enough credit for just how crazy he was)

The Christians in America have been and will be problematic at best for the rest of us as long as they wield the political muscle.

They regard atheists in much the same way as they do homosexuals, if not worse.

Amen, to the Reagan statement.
And so true about atheists.  Atheists think and use reasoning.  Theists hate thinking above all other things.  Some homosexuals will try to 'repent'--atheists almost never do--and they use reasoning and critical thinking, which is clearly of the devil.  They are beyond redemption!

[Mike Cl]

an many people around here- have the insight to the subject as much as you know about some celebrity's love life from a tabloid. That is the quality and the level of responsibility of the common Western media from NYC to edges of Europe.

You know, Shoe, that is what I've thought for awhile.  The people of the US have a rotten media for news--for actual news.  When I was growing up, one could count on ABC, CBS and NBC to give an attempt at giving us the news.  Now I don't really know of an actual news source.  Faux is beyond a joke.  CNN tries, but not all that hard.  I like MSNBC, but realize it is liberal leaning (not a bad thing for me), but not always giving us the news.  All of those mentioned really give news commentary and not the news.  I tried RT for awhile, but it is quite obvious it is propaganda for Russia.  The Chinese channel is a joke for the most part.  I've been watching Al Jazeera for awhile, and have not make my mind up about it yet.  I do like Democracy Now on Free Speech TV, and FIST has a few good programs every now and again.  I've sprinkled in BBC America for awhile, but I was not impressed.  It is a real shame that I have to rely on The Daily Show (John Stewart) and the Colbert Show--now gone for my real news.  You are in Turkey, which gives you a better view of our media and how it works (or doesn't)--what do you think of those I've mentioned?  Where do you get your news from?