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Nutrition: The problem with VEGAN and PALEO

Started by Aractus, April 09, 2015, 09:16:18 AM

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Aroura33

Quote from: Aractus on April 10, 2015, 08:04:44 AM
That's correct, however binge eating disorder was added to DMV-5 having previously not being recognised as a disorder in its own right, and the thing about orthorexia nervosa is not that it's not a disorder, but rather that it may be a symptom of another disorder rather than being its own independent disorder. So while it can't be officially diagnosed by a doctor, a person can still receive professional treatment.
You can buy lactose-free dairy.
That's not at all entirely accurate, aside from the last bit - i.e. most cereals are sugar-filled crap in a packet. The right ones are not and provide a number of important nutrients through fortification.

You never mentioned eating fish - how do you expect to get the omega-3 fatty acids in your diet? And no, cooking oils don't count for much because they all have more omega-6 fatty acids.
And think about this - I don't know what the case is in the USA, but in Australia the vast majority of fish sold in general takeaways and in clubs in crumbed or batter is flake (shark). It's very high in mercury - if people were eating it 2-3 times a week like the quantity of fish we're supposed to eat - then they'd be developing mercury toxicity for sure! So even if it wasn't deep fried, it still wouldn't be the best choice...
I did mention eating fish.  I said:

QuoteWe eat meat about every other day.  Rarely beef (St. Patties day I made a corned beef and that was the first piece of beef I've bought in months and months), usually it's chicken, turkey, or local fish.  In Oregon, fortunately for me, it's not hard to buy local fish and local free range chicken. 

Note that I mention even buying LOCAL fish.  For me in Oregon, that means salmon and trout, sole, halibut, shrimp, clams, and much much more. I realize I also wrote a ton (I'm sick and was bored), and this was easy to miss, but realize that if you missed this in my post, people were bound to miss a lot in yours as well.

I've stopped eating breakfast cereals, and I don't see why I would eat that garbage instead of just taking a vitamin if I'm missing something in my diet, especially since I am trying to avoid wheat based things.  My family does eat whole oatmeal and sometimes rice cereal with fruit in it, but we avoid COLD processed breakfast cereals now.  Probably more because they are processed than anything, and we try to avoid most highly processed foods now.

(BTW, I agree with what you said about orthorexia nervosa, as I've seen people exhibit veganism in a....well pathological way.  Just pointing out it isn't YET accepted, just proposed).

Anyway, sorry if anything in my first post or this one comes off as harsh or aggressive.  Normally I'm not very argumentative, but as I mentioned, I'm really sick (this is the FIRST time my 8 year old kid has ever even thrown up, and it has probably been 20 years since I have, so we are not used to being sick).  I took my daughter to a kids birthday party, and she brought home the worse stomach illness any of us has ever had. I've had to take care of my family while ALSO being just as sick as them, so I'm dead exhausted and ready to punch something or cry, not sure which. lol.

Kid and germs. That's a post I'd like to make.....gack. 
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.  LLAP"
Leonard Nimoy

Solitary

I have seen so many studies that are so biased that are suppose to be scientific that are BS. I'll let the vegetarians below speak for themselves.
First picture is of Joan Jett at 56 years of age. I've seen where plastic surgeons (no bias there!) and others have said she has had plastic surgery, which is true because of a facial enjury when younger. She has had her teeth capped, but she has not had plastic surgery. I've been a semi vegetarian all my life, and until I was 52 years old I could do anything physical I could at 18. Joan Jett could do 50 military pushups when she was 28.  I admit I'm biased about Joan Jett that saved my life from promising her I would never do hard drugs again. Solitary







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Albert Einstein, renowned scientist - info (IVU)
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Angie Everhart, model and actress - info
Anna Paquin, actress and Oscar winner of The Piano - info
Anna Nicole Smith, actress, model - info
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Anne Hathaway, actress - info
Annie Lennox, singer and songwriter - info
Anoushka Shankar, musician and sitar virtuoso, vegan - info
Antoni Gaudí, architect - info (IVU)
Anthony Grayling, writer and columnist - info
Anthony Hopkins, actor and animal advocate - info
Anthony Kiedis, singer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, vegan - info
Anthony Peeler, NBA Player - info
Anthony Perkins, actor - info
Anthony Rapp, actor, vegan - info
Anthony Robbins, writer and speaker - info
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Artymus Pyle, musician of Lynyrd Skynyrd - info
Ariana Grande, singer, vegan - info
Ariana Huffington, writer and political activist - info
Aristotle, Greek philosopher - info (IVU)
Ashley Judd, actress - info
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Audrey Kitching, model - info
Avril Lavigne, musician - info
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Barney Greenway, musician - info
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Belinda Carlisle, singer of the Go-Go's - info
Benjamin Franklin, author, politician, and scientist - info (IVU)
Benjamin Spock, M.D., pediatrician, vegan - info
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Benji Madden, musician and guitarist of Good Charlotte - info
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Bill Clinton, former American President - info
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Bob Marley, musician and reggae legend - info
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Boy George, singer - info
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Daryl Hannah, actress and environmental activist, vegan - info
Dave Davies, musician of The Kinks - info
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Dick Gregory, comedian and civil rights activist - info
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Dirk Bach, German actor and comedian - info
Dizzie Gillespie, famed jazz musician - info (IVU)
Doctah B Sirius, music producer and natural health researcher - info
Doris Day, actress - info
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Ellen Burstyn, TV personality, vegan - info
Ellen Degeneres, TV personality - info
Ellen Page, actress, vegan - info
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Ellen White, American Christian pioneer, founder of Seventh-day Adventist church - info
Ellie Goulding, singer, vegan - info
Elvira Mistress of the Dark, actress - info
Elvis Costello, musician, singer and songwriter - info
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Emilie Autumn, musician, vegan - info
Emily Dickinson, writer and poet - info
Emmylou Harris, singer - info
Enya (Eithne Patricia Ní Bhraonáin), singer - info
Epicurus, Greek philosopher - info (IVU)
Eric Johnson, guitarist - info
Eric Roberts, actor, vegan - info
Eric Stoltz, actor - info
Erykah Badu, R&B singer, vegan - info
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Flo Rida, Rapper, vegan - info
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Forest Whitaker, actor - info
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Franz Kafka, Jewish writer - info (IVU)
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Fred Schneider, musician of B-52's - info
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Gabrielle Miller, actress, vegan - info
Gandhi, Hindu spiritual leader - info (IVU)
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Geoff Rickly, singer of Thursday - info
Geoffe Tate, singer of Queensryche - info
George Harrison, musician of the Beatles - info (IVU)
George Bernard Shaw, writer - info (IVU)
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Gerard and Mikey Way, musician - info
Geoff Rowley, professional skateboarder - info
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Ginnifer Goodwin, actress - info
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There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Aroura33

#17
Vegetarians and vegans are not the same....just FYI.  Vegetarianism has shown health benefits (although I understand the largest  study done and cited was on Seventh Day Adventests, who also tend not to drink or smoke, which also affect longevity).

Also, the LONGEST lifespan (according to this ONE study) were not from vegans or pure vegetarians, it was from people who at fish and small amounts of meat, see Live Science here:

http://www.livescience.com/37102-vegetarians-live-longer.html

The science appears to support that reducing meat greatly, but not eliminating it entirely, has the best health benefits.  Except red meat, it's just a big no-no.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.  LLAP"
Leonard Nimoy

Solitary

Quote from: Aroura33 on April 10, 2015, 03:44:52 PM
Vegetarians and vegans are not the same....just FYI.  Vegetarianism has shown health benefits (although I understand the largest  study done and cited was on Seventh Day Adventests, who also tend not to drink or smoke, which also affect longevity).

Also, the LONGEST lifespan (according to this ONE study) were not from vegans or pure vegetarians, it was from people who at fish and small amounts of meat, see Live Science here:

http://www.livescience.com/37102-vegetarians-live-longer.html



I am very much aware of that. Like I said I am a semi-vegetarian. But also very much aware that red meat is not healthy when consumed too much, if at all. I'm not a fanatic about nutrition, there is more to life than just being healthy. And there is more to life than just Rock & Roll. The most fun I have had in life is pushing the boundaries of health and risks, societies rules, and that were calculated, like sky-diving and alpine skiing, and motor sports. Solitary 
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Desdinova

"How long will we be
Waiting, for your modern messiah
To take away all the hatred
That darkens the light in your eye"
  -Disturbed, Liberate

Solitary

There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Deidre32

The only lasting beauty, is the beauty of the heart. - Rumi

Desdinova

"How long will we be
Waiting, for your modern messiah
To take away all the hatred
That darkens the light in your eye"
  -Disturbed, Liberate

Aractus

#23
Quote from: Hydra009 on April 10, 2015, 01:18:44 PM
Over here it's salmon, tuna, tilapia, Alaskan pollock, etc.  Tuna's the big one, iirc.  Source
I was only talking about what comes out of the deep-fryer, we wouldn't batter salmon on tuna...

Solitary

Cherry pie is really good if it is old enough.  :eek: :syda: :super: :cool: :popcorn:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Aractus

Quote from: Aroura33 on April 10, 2015, 01:19:53 PMI did mention eating fish.  I said:
Oh so you did, I stand corrected.

Quote(BTW, I agree with what you said about orthorexia nervosa, as I've seen people exhibit veganism in a....well pathological way.  Just pointing out it isn't YET accepted, just proposed).
Which I'd already pointed out the first time. Internet gaming disorder is another one - interestingly I think they should broaden the definition of gambling disorder to include addictive gaming rather than have an entirely separate disorder, but then again as I'm not a psychologist there may be a legitimate reason to have a separate disorder, particularly if a person can be suffering from both disorders at the same time and would need treatment for each one. Interestingly with eating disorders, some people are treated for conditions in-between anorexia and bulimia rather than both of them. Suggesting to me that doctors and therapists that specialise in eating disorders don't always stick to DSM classifications when dealing with individual cases.

QuoteI took my daughter to a kids birthday party, and she brought home the worse stomach illness any of us has ever had. I've had to take care of my family while ALSO being just as sick as them, so I'm dead exhausted and ready to punch something or cry, not sure which. lol.
Those bugs are passed in faeces. Always flush the toilet with the seat down, and teach your children to do the same. Someone who had the virus originally wend to the toilet, probably had diarrhoea everywhere, flushed the toilet and went away. For argument's sake we'll assume they did have the lid down. The next person, e.g. your daughter, went to the toiulet and then left the lid up when they flushed, spreading the germs into the air and breathed them in. Anyway one of my pet peeves: people leaving the toilet seat up when they flush. Spreads disease just like not covering your mouth when you sneeze.

Aractus

#26
Quote from: Aroura33 on April 10, 2015, 03:44:52 PMVegetarians and vegans are not the same....just FYI.  Vegetarianism has shown health benefits (although I understand the largest  study done and cited was on Seventh Day Adventests, who also have lower rates than the general population of drinking alcohol, caffeine, taking recreational drugs, or smoking tobacco, which also affect longevity).
Fixed that for you.

And also, they're participating in a socially acceptable form of religion which also has a positive effect on health both physical and mental. So yeah, compared to the average Joe they're already healthier. Interestingly, 61% of Australians identify as Christian (and I used to be one of those in that 2011 census), but it's not religious belief that brings health benefit it's participation - being a part of a community, etc, that brings the health benefits, and SDA's are well known for their participation when compared with others who call themselves Christian but maybe go to church only on Easter and Christmas. So add that 61% of Australians that say they're Christian to the other religions, and we've got 68.2% who say they have a religion, 22.3% who say they are non-religious, and 9.4% who aren't sure whether they have religious beliefs or not. But compare that 68.2% to the 8% who are regular church goers. That means that statistically speaking, only 11.7% of religious people participate in their religion, and so only 11.7% (at most) derive a health benefit from it. As I mentioned, the fact that SDA's tend to have a higher rate of participation (and the studies you talked about I believe exclusively considered SDA's that were participating church goers and not passive believers), means that that's another health benefit they have that 92% of the population (compared with here in Australia anyway) doesn't have.

Anyway, I agree that vegetarianism has some health benefits, when compared to the average western diet; but it also has health risks and it doesn't have proven benefits when compared to the guidelines put forward by the NHMRC (or its equivalent in USA/Japan/other countries).

QuoteAlso, the LONGEST lifespan (according to this ONE study) were not from vegans or pure vegetarians, it was from people who at fish and small amounts of meat, see Live Science here:

http://www.livescience.com/37102-vegetarians-live-longer.html

The science appears to support that reducing meat greatly, but not eliminating it entirely, has the best health benefits.  Except red meat, it's just a big no-no.
That's not exactly what the science suggests. Eating red meat has health benefits, but over-consumption has risks that can outweigh the benefits.

the_antithesis

Quote from: Aractus on April 12, 2015, 07:36:05 PM
Fixed that for you.

Yes, that was completely necessary and changed the basic meaning of what she'd already said.

Thank you for being fiddly and pedantic.

Aractus

Quote from: the_antithesis on April 12, 2015, 07:56:29 PMYes, that was completely necessary and changed the basic meaning of what she'd already said.

Thank you for being fiddly and pedantic.

Well, yes and no. As I mentioned, extensively now, there are a number of health benefits that SDA's derive from their lifestyle; and there is no study that looked at vegetarian SDA's to non-vegetarian SDA's, particularly because SDA's that are not practising vegetarianism would be more likely to be smokers, drinkers, caffeine consumers, recreational drug users, and less likely to be active church-going participants in their religion. Furthermore, and I've seen the studies, they only compared to the average population. They didn't compare to people who followed the government-published guidelines for healthy eating. All of this affects the results of the studies far more than just what was suggested.

trdsf

I have long been of the opinion that the least healthy food choice one can make is to stress about every little thing one eats.  Eat what you like, in moderation, be aware of the research and adjust your behavior accordingly.  I mean, I'm a good Polish kid, I will never give up pierogi, kielbasa and kiszka -- but I also know not to eat them daily or even weekly.

The problem I have with vegetarianism and veganism is not with them per se but with a certain class of adherents to those dietary choices, who talk to me like I'm an axe murderer because I like the occasional burger.  At that point, it's more religion than it is food intake and I feel perfectly justified in ignoring them.  I'm willing to make allowances for personal dietary choices -- I've cooked vegan and kosher before to suit the needs of a guest, and I wouldn't take vegan friends to the local Brazilian barbecue even though they have an amazing salad bar.

But I'm not going to be lectured over a White Castle.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan