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Anti-Vaxers - They are everywhere!

Started by Aroura33, February 11, 2015, 03:32:10 PM

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Baruch

Doctor's activities are called a practice, for a reason.  This isn't to say they are deliberately being irresponsible, though some are.  Just that depending on how serious your condition is, you shouldn't expect medical miracles, especially if you claim to be atheist.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

chill98

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
We have different definitions of 'rampant.' 138,000 deaths a year in 1990. Do you think that this rate of death should be tollerated?
138K deaths vs 1.75 billion people 15 years old or less 1990 = 0.008%
8/1000ths of a percent.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/01/30/global-population/

And that is assigning the total (estimated) deaths to those 15yo or younger.

Yeah, I am ok with that.  No I would not describe that as rampant.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
B. pertussis has evolved to be more toxic because that toxin is what facilitates its transmission.
No it doesnt become more toxic to facilitate its transmission.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Of course B. pertussis is going to try to overcome our defenses.
Yes, that is evolutionary.  The game changer appears to be vaccination because it is NOT in the best interest of a species to wipe out its host; as we have watched ebola evolve to kill fewer and fewer of those infected.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Also, if it's a misdiagnosis, what is the disease misdiagnosed as? A bacterial infection? If so, the treatment would be with antibiotics, which is the only additional thing you can do if you have pertussis anyway.
The whole point (which escapes you still) was we have no reliable info on how well the old vaccine worked because Doctors (via indoctrination) refused to consider the possibility vaccinated persons could get whooping cough.  Now with a more investigation, the discovery that waning immunization is a fact... 50 years later....
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Bronchitis is not a disease, but a condition that has many diseases associated with it, including pertussis. And if you're caughing up your lungs and puking afterward (classic pertussis symptoms), they're going to consider a bacterial infection of some kind.

Yet that is not what the links said.  What the links said was pertussis was not considered by the professionals in 70% (or higher) cases presenting classic pertussis symptoms... and that issue stretches back to the beginning of pertussis vaccinations.


Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
As was pertussis, bub. And yes, they're going to try to improve the vaccine to reduce side effects. We do this all of the time, with every drug. It's called the march of science. We improve our knowledge, and with it, the safety and effectiveness of our tools.

Its not me who is refusing to consider that the vaccines have provided an unintended consequence... that being SOME kids are being devastated by the immunization program. 

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM

From the abstract: "Whole cell pertussis vaccines are generally highly efficacious. All whole cell vaccines are reactogenic, causing fever and local reactions in many vaccinees. In the past, these vaccines were thought to cause infant deaths and brain damage. However, several large epidemiologic studies indicate that whole cell vaccines do not cause infant deaths or neurologic disease."

You did notice the underlined portion of the above was a circular reference i.e. the several large epidemiologic studies were studies by the author of this paper?  ya know.. not independent.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Badly gathered data is badly gathered data, even if the WHO does it. Being published by the WHO does not make a figure reliable. It's the veracity of the data gathered and the analysis that makes a figure reliable. What you have presented is a tally. It's an interesting bit of trivia, but without some sort of context, it's worthless.
But badly gathered data that supports what you want to believe is OK?

Quote from previously posted link:

QuoteIn his April 1986 letter to us, CDC's Director of Immunization, Dr. Hinman, acknowledges "reports in the literature of death associated with apparent shock following pertussis immunization." He also states, quote, "we do not ascribe causality for reported deaths." This leads to the conclusion that death can occur on the pages of medical journals, but not in actual babies.  Your reporting system, by design, is unable to distinguish vaccine induced deaths for coincidences, so coincidence is assumed for all deaths.

So we are still left with our question: How many American children are dying each year? Is it none? Is it eight as Dr. Hinman has suggested? Or is it the four to five hundred that the Nickerson study would suggest?

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
And yet somehow this NOT-POLIO experienced a near total collapse of cases in this country just when a vaccine specific to it started mass distribution? Do you realize how insane you sound right now?
I posted the link showing polio on the decline before the vaccination was implemented.  In your own graph, the decline was there, just not as complete.  You may not have liked my source, but you did not provide a better source showing the polio incidence BEFORE the vaccine. 

No one knows how much of what was claimed to be polio actually was polio. The limited testing done in the USA at that time revealed over 50% of the AFP did not have a polio connection.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
They tested 80% of the claimed 47,500? In a developing country? BULLSHIT!

Yes, 80% of the claimed 47,500 were claimed tested for polio. Again, I say bullshit. The WHO monitors out there are still largely going to be pulled from the rank and file Indian doctors, who are already under stress from the fact that they are practicing medicine in a developing country. Furthermore, to have a good statistical analysis, you don't need to test 80% of them. A few thousand is enough, with good bias squeezers. Why are they testing this many people? The WHO ought to know statistics as well as I. I smell a rat.
Not my problem you have a bit of confimation bias in play here.  Produce better info or stfu.

Where are the historic epidemics?

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2015/06/26/indias-victory-over-polio-has-an-unexpected-consequence/

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Together with the fact that polio all but vanished in the US when a specific vaccine against it was developed and distributed en masse, the above puts the last nail in the coffin of any case that polio == DDT poisoning.

yeah right... AGAIN of the approx 1% of alleged polio tested in the USA during that time period, more than 50% did not show a polio connection.  You keep going back to the DDT thing, when it was the only graph I could find showing polio prior to the vaccine release.  If you have a better graph showing this polio crisis in the usa BEFORE the vaccine, produce it.  Otherwise observe the FACT in the graph, polio was declining BEFORE vaccine introduction.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Yet none of this occured to you at all. I found every piece of relevant information in about an hour on the web, yet you had several days to do the same and didn't find this stuff

See above.  I wasnt looking for info on polio when vaccine came into use, I was looking for polio incidents PRIOR to vaccines.  For a disease that has 'supposedly' plagued mankind since the time of the Egyptians, I find it puzzling that suddenly it is a crisis in the 20th century.  A disease that does not hinder the majority of exposed persons -- over 90% are not negatively affected + Less than 1% suffers chronic muscle/nervous system damage.

You have not found that info yet or you would have produced it.  But as is tradition for your position, you produce incomplete data and declare mission accomplished.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
And, no, you don't get away with that shit when you say:because to even consider it a possibility is stupid. No, they are NOT fair questions to anyone with curiosity enough to even visit another anti-vaxer website. The entire anti-vax movement is a big exercise in moving the goalposts. They want to find any reason at all to discount the efficacy of vaccines, but all of them are bad.

Because you remain confused, let me remind you.  I was immunized and I personally took my kid in for vaccination. 

Anti-vaxxer as a moniker is more of your attempts to label things with a True/False no in between.  You cant have it both ways: Vaccines are safe and nothing in medicine is guaranteed.  What fails to imprint on you is the effort by the general medical community to blame anything adverse on anything BUT the vaccines. 

No one has said all vaccines are bad for everyone.  But there are real questions about WHO vaccines are BAD for. 

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
You would have found that the entire movement began with a fake research paper by Andrew Wakefield...
Except this is blatantly untrue and described in a couple of previous posts/links. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Injury_Act

They did not inflict this legislation for no reason. 
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on April 25, 2016, 08:20:04 PM
Now that IS a fallacy. My choice in avatar has nothing to do with the quality of my arguments, any more than having a bald-eagle avatar proves your a patriot.
Delusional or not (quality of argument) It shows your lack of integrity and lack of creativity:
"Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu"

vs my avatar which is my own pic -- which you associate with a nationalistic tendency -- rather than contemplate its origin.  But that doesn't surprise me, being as its not a cartoon character-- ya know, its something real and not imagined.

Yes your judgement is a bit clouded by your bias.

Fickle

#182
Chill98
QuoteAnti-vaxxer as a moniker is more of your attempts to label things with a True/False no in between.  You cant have it both ways: Vaccines are safe and nothing in medicine is guaranteed.  What fails to imprint on you is the effort by the general medical community to blame anything adverse on anything BUT the vaccines. 

No one has said all vaccines are bad for everyone.  But there are real questions about WHO vaccines are BAD for. 

I think you nailed it, we know vaccines work however that is not the whole truth because in some cases they do harm. As well it is not the fact that the cases where harm is done are rare, it is that when harm is done so-called professionals misrepresent the facts to protect their vested interests.

An imbecile may be untruthful for personal gain and that is understandable however when a professional is untruthful I cannot seem to distinguish them from the imbecile hence my dilemma. It may be that they are one and the same simply having a different profession.

As always it is not what we say which defines who we are... but what we do.

Fickle

#183
Concerning the "Herd" mentality or safety in numbers, should I aspire to be a sheep or a cow?. You know the Indians used to routinely herd buffalo down a confined space leading to a cliff. The buffalo could not see the edge of the cliff until it was much too late and even if they could all those buffalo behind them were blindly pushing forward.

As well nothing great has evolved from mediocrity, the championing of the ordinary or simply following everyone else. The question is do you want to be A) the buffalo or B) the people herding them over that cliff?. I choose option C, the guy watching the stupidity unfold though a set of binoculars from a distance.

Baruch

Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Fickle

My wife was a Registered Nurse and she saved many lives... from many doctors incompetence. If the crowd only knew what happens behind closed doors, if they only knew the actual reality seen by the people with their feet on the ground they would think differently. However ignorance is bliss as is blind faith, it's simply a different flavor of faith thinking that person in the scrubs has a clue what their is doing. The fact is unless a person has worked within the system then they don't have a clue about anything, it's sheer speculation by those not involved.

Baruch

#186
Though I think most medical personal mean well, that doesn't get you much.  I work on the inside too, fortunately not too close to the patients.  Medical admin is error prone also, and potentially fatal ... you don't have to be doing brain surgery to impact a patient.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Fickle

I think most mean well however actual competence and making the right choice has little to do with being a good person. I know many awesome people of outstanding character who are incompetent at their occupation. Meaning well is not doing well in reality and matters only get worse when people try to hide their incompetence. I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box however if I make a mistake I am the first to admit it. In fact I take great pride in admitting I made a mistake which I think many find very odd. I proclaim it so everyone in the room hears so they know I am not them, I am nothing like them, so they know where I stand.

This isn't rocket science, if people are going to continually lie to hide their mistakes then they are acting like children not adults.

Baruch

Quote from: Fickle on May 07, 2016, 12:44:35 AM
I think most mean well however actual competence and making the right choice has little to do with being a good person. I know many awesome people of outstanding character who are incompetent at their occupation. Meaning well is not doing well in reality and matters only get worse when people try to hide their incompetence. I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box however if I make a mistake I am the first to admit it. In fact I take great pride in admitting I made a mistake which I think many find very odd. I proclaim it so everyone in the room hears so they know I am not them, I am nothing like them, so they know where I stand.

This isn't rocket science, if people are going to continually lie to hide their mistakes then they are acting like children not adults.

Because of malpractice law, dating back to Hammurabi ... they have to hide their mistakes.  That is why famously it is said "doctors bury their mistakes".

"I am nothing like them" ... so you are Vogon?  Please read me your poetry ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Fickle

Quote"I am nothing like them" ... so you are Vogon?  Please read me your poetry ;-)
Vulcan, lol.

QuoteBecause of malpractice law, dating back to Hammurabi ... they have to hide their mistakes.  That is why famously it is said "doctors bury their mistakes".

I think in most occupations there are good people who mean well who work within a system which is fundamentally broken. The fact remains there would be no doctors, nurses or hospitals if every individual who made a mistake was held liable. They could not produce a profit, thus we come full circle to the notion it is not so much a profession more so a business. It should not surprise anyone that the primary mandate of every business or corporation is to generate a profit. Above all else they are required to generate a profit by any means.

So this notion that they are professionals not motivated by profit is false because the corporate mandate requires them to be motivated by profit in every case. I understand the popular opinion may be different however opinion has little to do with reality. The proof would be to go to any clinic or hospital and tell them we cannot pay and see how far that gets us... not far I think. Thus we can throw this false notion of professionalism and empathy out with the bath water.

Baruch

Quote from: Fickle on May 07, 2016, 09:56:54 AM
Vulcan, lol.

I think in most occupations there are good people who mean well who work within a system which is fundamentally broken. The fact remains there would be no doctors, nurses or hospitals if every individual who made a mistake was held liable. They could not produce a profit, thus we come full circle to the notion it is not so much a profession more so a business. It should not surprise anyone that the primary mandate of every business or corporation is to generate a profit. Above all else they are required to generate a profit by any means.

So this notion that they are professionals not motivated by profit is false because the corporate mandate requires them to be motivated by profit in every case. I understand the popular opinion may be different however opinion has little to do with reality. The proof would be to go to any clinic or hospital and tell them we cannot pay and see how far that gets us... not far I think. Thus we can throw this false notion of professionalism and empathy out with the bath water.

Yes, a business ... like medicine wagon or barber.  At least it isn't pet rocks!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

I have a rule when arguing against cranks: Never take anything that a crank says at face value. The crank has either (a) lied, (b) distorted the data, or (c) are woefully misinterpreting it. It really doesn't matter which is the case, because if the crank had any legitimate argument about what they propose... they wouldn't be cranks.

Everything that the anti-vaxers have presented is nothing more than post-hoc rationalization of their anti-vax attitude. The spurious DDT linkage? A smokescreen to prevent you from seeing that, without it, they have no explanation of why the extinction of wild polio is very intimately linked with the introduction of polio vaccine and the universal vaccination strategy â€"a result that is replicated across the world multiple times, in places that never used DDT. The SV40 nonsense? A smokescreen designed to put fear into you that any polio vaccine you take is a deadly concoction of disease, nevermind that that was only in the early batches and since then SV40 failed to show the sort of link to the cancer they fear. It's just a constant barrage of accusations that they throw at vaccines, hoping one of them will stick. It's clearly an ideological difference they have with vaccines, not any sort of actual science.

Anti-vaxers all think they're Frances Oldham Kelsey, the woman who prevented thalidomide from being approved in the US, and thus sparing us from all those deformed babies. Anti-vaxers think that they are alerting us sheep to the dangers of a pharmaceutical industry eager to push their dangerous shit on us. The problem is that Kelsey was blocking a new drug from entering our market in lieu of independent tests about its safety. Vaccines have been around for a good century â€"the important ones for fifty years or moreâ€" and are quite thoroughly tested so their risks and rewards are pretty well established. Vaccines have earned their place as one of the important quantum leap in human health.

And yes, people are keeping watch on how well vaccination works. That's how we know that aP vaccine may be causing a problem with increased toxicity in pertussus bacteria. In fact, we may need to go back to wcP vaccine, given that it presents a more complete set of antigens for the immune system to target, thus increasing degree of immunity. But of course, it was the proto-anti-vax camp that made wcP vaccine unpopular in the first place with its spurious link to SIDS.

Seriously, these guys are poison.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
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Hijiri Byakuren

Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

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Baruch

Message brought to you by Merk and Monsanto.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Additionally, organic cultists all think they're Norman Borlaug. They think that they're the ones who are going to feed the world in a healthy way. But no matter how they push thier organic bullshit, they'll never save a billion lives like Borlaug. The reason why is simple: they are too wedded to their idiology to see that their dogma is actually far more destructive ecologically and more likely to result in mass starvation than conventional methods, including GMO's, because nothing is more destructive to the land than farming.

Isn't that right, Baruch?
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu