Hebdo Founder Thinks Editor Went To Far + Anti-Antisemitism Firing

[PickelledEggs]

Shiranu's point was not to make Islam "look better." It's a criticism of the nonsense that only Muslims are a threat to the lives of others when their religion is shit on.

I did notice how the goalposts moved. First we had. "There's no threat to criticizing Non-Muslims religions" to "where's the body count?"

And when a body count is given, we get "Why are you defending Islam?"

Yet Shiranu is the bad guy.

I am simply giving a warning because of the name calling and hostility. It has nothing to do with who is correct.

Shir has a lot of good points, but calling pr a cunt and saying he is "too fucking stupid" is not how you conduct yourself in a discussion and especially with fellow members.

Sent from your mom.

[Berati]

Shiranu's point was not to make Islam "look better." It's a criticism of the nonsense that only Muslims are a threat to the lives of others when their religion is shit on.

This is a straw man. No one has said this especially not in an atheist forum. The point is that religions are not all the same and pretending they are leads to mistakes.

Yet Shiranu is the bad guy.

The warning was for inappropriate language.
But beyond that I don't think Shiranu is a bad guy (other than the over use of insults) what I see is the same mistake over and over. Any criticism of Islam is met with a comparison to Christianity. Any criticism of Islam is treated as an attack on a people rather than the ideology they support.

IMO Shiranu has fallen into a trap of extending tolerance to an intolerant ideology and defends Islam as a matter of course rather than addressing the criticisms directly. In this effort to defend at all costs, to be tolerant at all cost, otherwise easy to avoid errors are made on a regular basis. In many cases he simply ignores valid criticisms and goes on with the discussion as though those points were never made.

[Shiranu]

Well, you do keep responding like you're more annoyed than you claim to be.

Nice leaving out the part that followed literally one ( after that. I seem to remember the forum getting pissed off when people would quote mined, so you might want to watch out for that.

Any criticism of Islam is met with a comparison to Christianity.

You do realize PR was the one who brought up Christianity (and the other religions) in this thread right? Not just that, he specifically asked for us to compare Islam to Christianity and the others.

I'm trying my hardest to not let my stress from the real world get in this post because I don't have a problem with you, but you are kidding me, right?

If any other religion is brought up... shit is flipped because "how dare you compare the two, Islam is the only religion allowed to be violent!.". But then when it's not brought up, and this is not the first time this is happened, he cries that you have to compare them because it's so much worse.

But for providing the evidence he wanted I still get an earful of how dare I bring up Christianity? Seriously?

In many cases he simply ignores valid criticisms and goes on with the discussion as though those points were never made.

I'm sorry, but you have to be kidding me right now. You seriously do.

I provide evidence after evidence as to why he is wrong. I provide multi paragraph responses as to why he is wrong.

His response?

"LOL OKAY, you provided evidence to why I was wrong on  A, B, C (though I will not even acknowledge that)... but here is one quote from your post, and unless you prove me wrong on D LOL IM RIGHT!!!"

How the hell is responding to him moving the goalposts me somehow ignoring his criticisms? I am DIRECTLY RESPONDING TO HIS CRITICISMS AND HE CHANGES THE CRITERIA.

IMO Shiranu has fallen into a trap of extending tolerance to an intolerant ideology and defends Islam as a matter of course rather than addressing the criticisms directly.

Yes... exactly. That's exactly what me DIRECTLY RESPONDING TO HIS QUOTES ARE.

Whatever, he is on my ignore list now. I'm not sure when vulgarity was banned here, that would have been nice to known earlier (but to be fair there is a good chance I just over-looked that memo, so it's probably my fault), but it is what it is. I let my stress in the real world come out and I expressed (mildly, really) how pathetic I think he is instead of hiding it, so I'm not going to apologize for what I think of him. But I do apologize for expressing it so bluntly if that is against the rules now.


Edit:

But beyond that I don't think Shiranu is a bad guy (other than the over use of insults)

Yeah, I don't think I am being portrayed as the bad guy here, I think the issue is (and this is likely happening on both sides) that we are overlooking the sins of people who are in the same camp as us. I probably did get too blunt about him, but I'm also 100% sure that he has been moving the goalposts and puts out misleading information far too often.

That said, I don't want people to defend me just because they agree with me any more than I want people to defend PR just because they agree with him.

[PickelledEggs]

The warning was for inappropriate language.

Correct. The language (and only the language) is the reason for the warning.

You guys (I think) know my policy for swear words. As far as I know the other mods are the same way. Use them all you want, but don't use them to insult other members. Insult ideas if you want, but make sure you can back up what you are saying with facts and keep away from insulting fellow members. Especially people that have been members for a while. With the exception of verbal personal-attack, curse all you want.


@Shiranu, thank you for calming down. I appreciate it!

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Nice leaving out the part that followed literally one ( after that.

So now you're going to get pissed off about me chopping off an unimportant, bracketed-off piece of a sentence that wasn't required for my response. It's pretty obvious that you're just looking for excuses to fight people, at this point.

[Shiranu]

So now you're going to get pissed off about me chopping off an unimportant, bracketed-off piece of a sentence that wasn't required for my response. It's pretty obvious that you're just looking for excuses to fight people, at this point.

Righti-o. Have fun with that.

[Brian37]

"Overdoing it" is getting violent. If someone doesn't like what Charlie did that is fine, protest it, but still does not give anyone the right to murder you. The reason you blaspheme is to keep fascism from arising, it doesn't have to be just about religion, it can be about one person rule or one political party rule.

[Berati]

You do realize PR was the one who brought up Christianity (and the other religions) in this thread right? Not just that, he specifically asked for us to compare Islam to Christianity and the others.

You do realize my comment was about you're attitude and responses in general and not this specific post right?
Here are some words I used that should have made that clear, though I can understand missing it:

what I see is the same mistake over and over...
IMO Shiranu has fallen into a trap of extending tolerance to an intolerant ideology and defends Islam as a matter of course... 
In many cases he simply ignores valid criticisms and goes on with the discussion as though those points were never made.

I'm sorry, but you have to be kidding me right now. You seriously do.

No, I'm dead serious.
You have left many of my objections unanswered.
The entire issue of hypocrisy from moderates was not addressed at all. Other than making an error concerning an accusation of free speech that entire subject has never been replied to never mind that you refuse to acknowledge that an error was made.
Just today I responded to a post from Hydra (that you liked) about the problem of hypocrisy from moderates and I had to answer my own post since the topic was ignored.
Months ago I asked why Christian violence is brought up as a defense to Islamic violence and still no answer.
I've expressed multiple times that religions are ideologies with a claim of supernatural origin and that you can't simply lump ALL ideologies into one big pot and claim that none can be worse than the other. So far not one rebuttal of this point. Denials Yes, rebuttals No.

I'm not expecting an answer at this moment to the points I mention above as being unanswered as I'm not trying to set up a Gish Gallop. Maybe part of the problem has been that the discussion is too unfocused.

I'll try to start a thread later that is focused on the single issue that seems to be causing the most polarization of the board. 

[PickelledEggs]

"Overdoing it" is getting violent. If someone doesn't like what Charlie did that is fine, protest it, but still does not give anyone the right to murder you. The reason you blaspheme is to keep fascism from arising, it doesn't have to be just about religion, it can be about one person rule or one political party rule.

I agree with everything about this, except the picture of ABBA

[Munch]

I dunno why, it just came to me while making a cheese and pickle sandwich

[Shiranu]

I dunno why, it just came to me while making a cheese and pickle sandwich

Wat.

[PickelledEggs]

LOLOLOLOL

[DavidClark]

Personally, I woudn't draw those cartoons either. I don't feel like having to watch over my back for the rest of my life. It ain't worth it.

[pr126]

Whatever, he is on my ignore list now.

Hurrah! I am on Shiranu's ignore list. No more stalking? Thanks, bud.

Mind you, the ignore list is utterly useless, because when logged in all posts are visible, ignore list or not.
Plus it does not prevent quotes from ignored posters to show either..

So what use is the ignore list then?

[pr126]

I have just realized that I am blameless when criticizing "Islam and / or Muslims"

Here is why.

According to our world leaders Obama, Cameron, Merkel, the liberal left, et al, (BTW, they are all Islamic theologians), any and all atrocities, jihad, misogyny, oppression, beheading, mass murdering has nothing to do with Islam, and those who distort peaceful Islam for their own nefarious purposes, perpetrating these acts are not real Muslims.
Quite possibly these are false flag operations by the Christian right to make Islam look bad.

So what's the fuss? No real Islam or real Muslims have been harmed.  Simmer down,

The peaceful, tolerant, pluralistic Islam is in no danger of being disparaged by me.
Perish the thought.