Hebdo Founder Thinks Editor Went To Far + Anti-Antisemitism Firing

[Youssuf Ramadan]

I am not sure how I feel about Dieudonné's case... "freedom of speech" does not have to mean unlimited freedom, and by the laws of France he did break the law. I am not necessarily a proponent either that ANYTHING can be said without repercussion. I think the punishment is perhaps too harsh, but I think fines would be an acceptable punishment.

Makes sense to me.

[pr126]

@ Shiranu

OK,  so what is the body count?

If this is an attempt at  tu quoque, how this make Islam look any better?

[Shiranu]

@ Shiranu

OK,  so what is the body count?

Total?

Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.

Perhaps we want just recent, yeah?

Let's look at Bush's mandate from God to invade Iraq (I'll be nice and say it was just Bush, and that the Christian Right wasn't salivating to hell over the prospect of invading the Middle East [which they were]).

"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

There are more than 133,000 individually recorded civilian deaths since the 2003 invasion of Iraq due to direct war related violence and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have been wounded.

As of February 2014, at least 21,000 (Afghani) civilians are estimated to have died violent deaths as a result of the war.

The total number of civilians killed in Pakistan may be as high or higher than the toll in Afghanistan, with NGO estimates ranging widely between 20,000 and 50,000 recorded deaths.

In the CAR...

According to the International Organization for Migration (IOM), more than 60,000 people, most of them Muslim, have fled to neighboring countries since Dec. 5...

The National Socialist Council of Nagaland, Issac-Muivah faction (slogan: "Nagaland for Christ"), is accused of carrying out the 1992â€"1993 ethnic cleansing of Kuki tribes in Manipur, said to have leave over 900 people dead. During that NSCN-IM operation, 350 Kuki villages were driven out and about 100,000 Kukis were turned into refugees.[43]

The Sabra and Shatila massacre was the killing of between 762 and 3,500 civilians, mostly Palestinians and Lebanese Shiites, by a militia close to the Kataeb Party, also called Phalange, a predominantly Christian Lebanese right-wing party, in the Sabra neighborhood and the adjacent Shatila refugee camp in Beirut, Lebanon.

Here is one I'm sure is near and dear to your heart...

In July 2011, Anders Behring Breivik was arrested and charged with terrorism after a car bombing in Oslo and a mass shooting on Utøya island that killed 77 people.

What about Buddhists monks?

According to the Human Rights Watch report, the Burmese government and local authorities played a key role in the forcible displacement of more than 125,000 Rohingya and other Muslims in the region.

That is just a small sample, if you would like to add up the rest of the killings by other religious groups (sorry I left out the Jewish terrorist groups in Israel and the United States [who carried out more terror attacks than Islamic terrorists], Hindu terrorist groups... and so on)... I personally don't feel like having to do all your homework for you.

Also, take a look at the most violent countries in the world... the top 32 are all Christian (the majority of them extremely Christian Latin American countries). But I guess they are probably just Muslim minorities that make these countries so violent, because Muslims have a monopoly on violence.

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

For the land of Israel lies empty and broken after your attacks, but the LORD will restore its honor and power again.  Shields flash red in the sunlight!  The attack begins!  See their scarlet uniforms!  Watch as their glittering chariots move into position, with a forest of spears waving above them.  The chariots race recklessly along the streets and through the squares, swift as lightning, flickering like torches.  The king shouts to his officers; they stumble in their haste, rushing to the walls to set up their defenses.  But too late!  The river gates are open!  The enemy has entered!  The palace is about to collapse!  Nineveh's exile has been decreed, and all the servant girls mourn its capture.  Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow.  Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir!  The people are slipping away.  "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running.  Loot the silver! Plunder the gold!  There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures â€" its vast, uncounted wealth.  Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth.  Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake.  The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling.   (Nahum 2:2-10 NLT)

   "You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD.  And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist.  He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert.  The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle.  All sorts of wild animals will settle there.  Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows.  Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather.  This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure.  "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted.  But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live!  Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist.   (Zephaniah 2:12-15 NLT)

"Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path.  Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground."  Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger.  For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy.  He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth.   (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)


    When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it.  They completely destroyed everything in it â€" men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys â€" everything. 
  (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

  The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel.   (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

But yeah, Mohammed had a monopoly on the whole, "Desert Warlord" schtick. No one else ever made a book based on that concept :).

If this is an attempt at  tu quoque, how this make Islam look any better?

It's not, it's just to humour myself at your, "ISLAM IS THE GREATEST EVIL OF ALL TIME! YOU CANNOT COMPARE ANY RELIGION TO IT'S HORRORS HOW DARE YOU COMPARE ANY RELIGION TO IT!?!" ... followed by, "Well... prove to me that Islam is the evilest religion of all time, I want you to compare any other religion to it!"... with a grand finale of such genius as that quote above.

>Cries about people comparing Islam to other religions
>Demands people to compare other religions to Islam
>Cries that it isn't as comparatively evil as he originally said, completely moves goalposts.

[pr126]

Once more:
If this is an attempt at  tu quoque, how this make Islam look any better?

I reserve the right to hate an ideology, which is religious fascism, savagery, bigotry and hatred of the "other".

A rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.
And the beat goes on.

[Shiranu]

Once more:
If this is an attempt at  tu quoque, how this make Islam look any better?

Once more:
What happened to your principles, that you throw away, "Do not DAAARE compare it to Christianity!" when it suits your agendas?

[pr126]

@ Shiranu

I am puzzled why do you get all upset when Islam is criticized?


I have noticed a long time ago that criticizing Christianity on this forum is welcomed and applauded, but when criticizing Islam, a few posters, not many, get all worked up.

On this forum Islam can never  be discussed on it's own without including a comparison (a Tu Quoque ) with Christianity.
It is like a Pavlovian reflex, it never fails.

Equating  Islam with Christianity shows a complete lack of understanding what Islam is.
It is an argumentum ad ignorantiam.



In an other post you have included a photo of Hitler, and now Anders Breivik.
Why are you associating me with psychopaths?

Does my  denigrating Islam makes me a mass murdering psycho in your opinion?
I find your photos immature and unnecessary.

You wrote:

"Well... prove to me that Islam is the evilest religion of all time,

I cannot, because you are willfully ignorant.

Here is something you could try. Search for ex Muslims testimonies on the web, read them.
See if that helps. They know Islam, they lived it, they experienced it from up close and personal.

We have an ex Muslim here on this forum.

[Shiranu]

I am puzzled why do you get all upset when Islam is criticized?

I am puzzled why you think yourself more annoying than you actually are (in regards to Islam, anyways). I am far more puzzled about how one as loony as you lives in the first world than upset about you criticizing Islam.

In an other post you have included a photo of Hitler, and now Anders Breivik.
Why are you associating me with psychopaths?

I see; so you use the same rhetoric as the fear mongers who created villains like this, that the end of the world is neigh and it is all the other man who will bring it, we must prepare ourselves for this coming war!!!... and it is unfair to use their likeness.

You accuse me of being a terrorist supporter, a murder supporter, a man who supports the mutilation of women, a man who supports stripping away the rights of women till they should only be allowed to sit in the kitchen and have babies and cover themselves in public, a man who thinks its acceptable to imprison people for insulting Islam. You accuse me of supporting dictatorships that commit ethnic genocide and the intentional keeping of its people in poverty. You accuse me of all these things and far more because you are just far too fucking stupid to grasp that the world isn't as black and white as you want to make it, and yet I am just suppose to smile and be like, "Thank you Mr. PR, I cant imagine calling you on the cunt you are.".

Right then. Have fun with that, you cunt. See ya around.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I am puzzled why you think yourself more annoying than you actually are

Well, you do keep responding like you're more annoyed than you claim to be.

[pr126]

Shiranu wrote:

You accuse me of being a terrorist supporter, a murder supporter, a man who supports the mutilation of women, a man who supports stripping away the rights of women till they should only be allowed to sit in the kitchen and have babies and cover themselves in public, a man who thinks its acceptable to imprison people for insulting Islam. You accuse me of supporting dictatorships that commit ethnic genocide and the intentional keeping of its people in poverty. You accuse me of all these things and far more because you are just far too fucking stupid to grasp that the world isn't as black and white as you want to make it, and yet I am just suppose to smile and be like, "Thank you Mr. PR, I cant imagine calling you on the cunt you are.".

Would you care to substantiate your accusations?
Quote any of my posts that you think are relevant.

[Brian37]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xDnxv6eFNg#t=62

[PickelledEggs]

I am puzzled why you think yourself more annoying than you actually are (in regards to Islam, anyways). I am far more puzzled about how one as loony as you lives in the first world than upset about you criticizing Islam.

I see; so you use the same rhetoric as the fear mongers who created villains like this, that the end of the world is neigh and it is all the other man who will bring it, we must prepare ourselves for this coming war!!!... and it is unfair to use their likeness.

You accuse me of being a terrorist supporter, a murder supporter, a man who supports the mutilation of women, a man who supports stripping away the rights of women till they should only be allowed to sit in the kitchen and have babies and cover themselves in public, a man who thinks its acceptable to imprison people for insulting Islam. You accuse me of supporting dictatorships that commit ethnic genocide and the intentional keeping of its people in poverty. You accuse me of all these things and far more because you are just far too fucking stupid to grasp that the world isn't as black and white as you want to make it, and yet I am just suppose to smile and be like, "Thank you Mr. PR, I cant imagine calling you on the cunt you are.".

Right then. Have fun with that, you cunt. See ya around.

*Mod mode*
Shiranu. Consider this a warning and an official urge to take a break from this thread until you calm down.

There are no need for personal attacks. Like pr, I too have noticed that you almost immediately jump in to a kneejerk defense of Islam no matter what the criticism is... so it's is not just pr that thinks that you do that. And it happens almost every time that it happens. Someone criticizes Islam and you jump in and get increasingly hostile with your remarks, eventually throwing uncalled for name-calling and personal attacks at people.

You can get your message across to people and state your case without name-calling and hostility.

Feel free to post in this thread after this warning, but if you do not quit the hostility, you will have a forced 24 hr-long vacation from the forum.

[Brian37]

Any "attacks" in this thread, are about the justification for violence when no one has physically assaulted you. I don't care if someone calls your mother a slut, once you are out of grade school, you do NOT act out in violence just because you got picked on. It is certainly ok to respond and even cuss back, but in a civil society we do not get to murder each other over mere words.

No one should be murdering Muslims or Christians or Jews or atheists. No one should be burning down Churches or Mosques or Synagogues. It is absurd on a plant of 7 billion to expect everyone all the time to only say nice things and never piss each other off. Civility isn't about setting up taboos. Civility isn't being free from others pissing you off. Civility is what you do when you get pissed off. It simply is not enough to be pissed of to justify violence.

[PickelledEggs]

Any "attacks" in this thread, are about the justification for violence when no one has physically assaulted you. I don't care if someone calls your mother a slut, once you are out of grade school, you do NOT act out in violence just because you got picked on. It is certainly ok to respond and even cuss back, but in a civil society we do not get to murder each other over mere words.

No one should be murdering Muslims or Christians or Jews or atheists. No one should be burning down Churches or Mosques or Synagogues. It is absurd on a plant of 7 billion to expect everyone all the time to only say nice things and never piss each other off. Civility isn't about setting up taboos. Civility isn't being free from others pissing you off. Civility is what you do when you get pissed off. It simply is not enough to be pissed of to justify violence.

I saw that some Mosques were targeted and burnt down. Really upsetting. It's not the way people should go about this. That is almost literally fighting fire with fire, which doesn't work as any reasonable person would know.

[GrinningYMIR]

I don't know if its as much a defense of Islam as it is an opportunity to attack Western Culture and Christianity at the same time...

[Savior2006]

Shiranu's point was not to make Islam "look better." It's a criticism of the nonsense that only Muslims are a threat to the lives of others when their religion is shit on.

I did notice how the goalposts moved. First we had. "There's no threat to criticizing Non-Muslims religions" to "where's the body count?"

And when a body count is given, we get "Why are you defending Islam?"

Yet Shiranu is the bad guy.